Render farms?
Wonderland
Posts: 7,132
When I was at Siggraph there were a lot of companies that were render farms... I'm still trying to figure it all out but apparently you render on their remote servers rather than your own machine and this is what major studios use. The price, one company said was about $2.00 an hour and I'm thinking you could do like 30 second renders with that kind of power which would make it more cost effective than buying a new machine. I'm so non-techie that I have no idea if what I just wrote makes sense or is viable... Does anyone know more about render farms or has used them? Thanks.
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...I wouldn't use the service for test renders as you be wasting a lot of time reworking scene then submitting it and again, again for rendering.
Where I see it useful is for animators and people creating graphic novels as you could batch render a large number of frames/panels in a relatively short amount of time. I might consider it myself to get large format gallery quality images for photoprinting as well as the illustrations for my story.
The cost of the service needs to be less than building a new system with state of the art GPUs.
Also not clear if it would conflict with the Daz EULA (just like 3D printing) as you would be sending them the raw mesh files of everything in the scene
I could see using a service for animation, especially if you're a small outfit and you need your computers while you render. I haven't seen benchmarks that have proven to me that a diy renderfarm actually makes enough of a difference for the amount of small and resources they would use, but there are enough sites that show you how to set one up, and I know that Lightwave 3d has a utility for it.
I would do it if the cost was like a subscription get a certain amount of render time per month and if it rendered faster than my pic.
I can't imagine that it would break the EULA since major studios like Pixar, Disney, etc... are using them and their assets are especially proprietary!
Yes, I think that's how it works. I think (hope) it is charged by actual render time, so 30 seconds here, 45 seconds there until it adds up to an hour, not that you have to do an hour all at once... I have to look into it, but was wondering if anyone tried using one.
Also, all my renders are for print and I'm on a Mac, CPU only, so I need a faster solution.
Keep in mind that is probably $2:00 per cpu core hour. It might possibly be per CPU hour, but it sounds more like a CPU core rate. If by CPU core, a 1min. render using 8 cores would be a 8 min render charge. Many (most?) of the big studios have their own render farms, and use the commercial render farms just when they need the extra processing power to meet deadlines.
More likely it is $2 per machine. At amazon for example i can get a 36-Core machine with 60G RAM for under $2/h. Specialized renderfarms might be more expensive, because they bring the software with them and they might calculate prices based on seconds. But typical prices seem to be more like under 10 cent/Core/hour. I sometimes use amazon because it keeps my workstation free of a long-running render process. The difficult thing (at least for me) is to get the potentially gigabytes of textures from my workstation to the renderfarm, however. If i had a 100mbit line, i would probably use renderfarms all the time...
Yes, I had this experience when I experimented with Reality on an AWS server. The time it took to transmit my data completely killed any advantages it may have had over local renders...
If there was a streaming option in the future -- ie. Just In Time render calculations -- that would be the way to go.
...but they have their own.
...another issue, there is a switch in the Advanced render settings (inactive for now) for cloud rendering. Currently it is labelled "Beta" but there is a logon for the connection and specification for what server. If Daz gets access to an Nvidia VCA, (or has one of their own), then that could change things.
I just posted a question about whether there's a standalone iray renderer with DS that renders exported .mi files. I suspect .mi files are an easier way to export for a remote render farm (they're like .rib files but for Mental Ray and iray).
Wait, Amazon has render farms? I just googled Amazon render farms and it looks like Google has some cloud farms, not sure what the difference is and I found a local LA render farm, I might call them because I'm not techie enough to even know how to set it up. They are 3.2 cents a ghzh, I'm not even sure what that means but they have a free trial and 24/7 support... They might be more expensive than others because it's LA but maybe they can teach me what to do for the free trial and then I can find a cheaper one. Or maybe that's a good price, I have no idea LOL..
A few years a go I set up about 5 computers with the LuxRender Slaves and used the Luxus and with a Gigbit network it worked great. LuxRender has a Linux version, so you can do it pretty cheap. And the systems don't have to match, but they do all need to be running the same version of LuxRender. But you do have to spend the money on the Network setup. If you have a Second Network Port, you can set up separate network for the Doing the rendering so it you don't have traffic conflicts with your kid who is playing the latest MMORPG.
I did a How to with Luxus Slaves
I agree with mtl1, unless you have a good connection, the transmission speed of getting the files to the slaves coudl throw out any advantage.
Check the "extras" on these services. Many times the amount of storage they provide is minimal and they charge for extra.
Then you also take into account the time to install your package AND the content. So you're looking at the time to install DS, DIM, *AND* your content necessary for the scene *AND* the time to make the paths match for your content that isn't "standard" (i.e. freebies or 3rd party stores) all at the per hour rate. Oh, and doing it all using RDP (remote desktop) across the internet which can be EXTREMELY slow.
This can add up in both time and costs VERY quickly.
Kendall
Wonderland, most render farms are set up for pro use, not hobbyist, and that means pro fees. And there is the DAZ EULA, where the content data is OK to use only on your own computers, but not elsewhere. Maybe that will change if the Cloud setting in Iray is enabled. The line from the EULA is: " Specifically, User may copy the Content onto the storage device of an unlimited number of computers owned or controlled by User. The Content is for User’s exclusive use and no other individual or entity. Each individual must obtain his or her own license to use the Content." You would not own or control the computers of the bigger render farms and they can't render without the content files. Of course you could discuss this directly with DAZ for any more clarification. Amazon GPU rendering is limited in their amount of VRAM, so no big scenes. You could set up a basic sneaker net for DAZ Studio (3Delight prohibits a network render farm unless you buy their expensive software), Iray can use a VCA and DAZ is happy to help you with that (if you can afford $45,000 for the VCA from Nvidia and the electric bill), Carrara does have network rendering on your own computers, and so does Bryce. 3Delight's benefit to DAZ Studio is you get unlimited cores on one computer for free. The studios have to pay for that.
VCAs are limited by the individual GPU VRAM in the unit. Therefore it doesn't help with scenes larger than the GPUs' memory installed.
Kendall
Kendall is correct, so more expense there with a VCA.
...aww bugger, so the EULA is an issue then. Short of winning the Megabucks lotto don't see myself building my own server farm (as well as having a place to put it as I am in a shared living situation right now).
So when Is Daz looking to get the cloud rendering online? Is there any information at all on that?
The VCA seems more appropriate for a shared multi seat studio setup than a single user as yes you are limited to the VRAM of a single GPU (though the Qaudro M6000 which is the heart of the VCA was recently upgraded to 24 GB). It's too bad the Pascal Titan-X didn't get that same upgrade (or at least to 16 GB).
Kyoto Kid, there was a thread somewhere about the cloud, but it's all up in the air if I recall.
Yep, the EULA was the issue when we were talking about potential Carrara render farms a few years ago. Everything was OK if you owned or controlled all the computers. I think the line used to specify on your premises but it doesn't say that now.
..bugger again., seems there is no way around having to buy costly hardware to get decent render performance. This is part of what is making me consider ditching Iray and going back to 3DL. I ran a test in 4.9 on an old 3DL scene (large resolution) which used the AOA lights along with teh atmospheric cameras and it rendered much faster than it did in 4.7 (or was it 4.6?).
wowie and kettu have been making great progress with 3DL. Wowie has some renders that rival or better many Iray renders. And kettu figured out how to speed them up.
It's possible that renting time on the render farm counts as "controlling". You would really need to talk to a lawyer to find out for sure. The wording of the EULA does seem to allow e.g. buying VMs from AWS.
But larger professional studios use them and they have much more proprietary content.... I mean everything I'd be rendering is openly available for sale by anyone at prices affordable to most. It's not like footage from a studio animated movie that could be leaked. I'm sure there has to be tight security on these things...
argel1200, I think they mean controlling access, from the discussions on the old forums. The whole point is the content must be safe and only on your storage devices. No one else may have access to it. Best to consult with DAZ. Hiring a lawyer would only be guessing on their part unless they talked to DAZ directly. Then you are paying a lawyer for doing what you could do on your own.
Wonderland, yes, large studios use outside render farms when they have to, but they probably have big security guarantees and NDAs that have to be signed. But again, it goes back to what DAZ allows for licensed use of their content. There has been and is a piracy problem for DAZ content. You'd think there wouldn't be as the content is so affordable, but there are those who don't want to even spend a cent, and there are many here who gripe when prices go up just a little.
Greetings,
Argh. I just read this thread, and can't believe nobody called you out on this comment. _facepalm_
Anyway, I've done LuxRender networked rendering, but GPU rendering with Iray on a 740GTX is faster than the fastest I could get LuxRender to do with 4 machines.
From DAZ's perspective, imagine them having a network of machines with ALL the content pre-installed on a NAS. You could JUST upload your DUF file, and you wouldn't have to upload textures, models, etc., they'd all just be picked up from their content library. This would obviously only work for content sold by DAZ, but that's one hell of a lot of content...
-- Morgan
p.s. From my perspective, it'd also work wonderfully if I could run a slave process on a few boxes with decent GPUs, where they have copies of my content library, and treat them as an in-house render farm. I don't like how LuxRender does it, sending all the poly data and textures for the scene over the wire. That's unnecessary if I can have my content library installed on each machine.
heh heh
..ahh but that wouldn't work if you customise textures and maps For example I have a Kabuki face texture for my namesake character I created using a 2D programme. I would still have to submit that with the scenefile.
Wanted to chime in with the fact that nowadays you can build your own render farm - at least for CPU rendering - pretty inexpensively. Recently I bought some servers from eBay for less than $200 each which 5 years ago were sold for $5000 - $7000 apiece. The dual-Xeon processors actually are better/faster for rendering than i7's of the same era (or even more recent generations), and I can get up to 64 render cores in addition to the rendering cores of my primary PC (we should be able to get up to 100 render cores on the networked nodes according to the sales copy for Carrara Grid, but seem to be hitting a 64 core ceiling; there is a discussion on the Carrara forums at the moment where another Carrarist has run into the same issue, but this is an aside). So you don't have to be a billionaire to put together a decent little render farm of your own, just need to watch eBay for some good deals.
Here's a screenshot of a test scene with 80 render cores (16 cores on the primary PC and 64 cores on the various nodes, which are denoted by the gray 'N' buckets). It's a blast to see the render screen fill up with all those rendering buckets, I admit. Of course, this is Carrara, I admit my ignorance on whether Studio can network render (though I've seen posts that suggest that at least Iray can). Also, this is an example of CPU rendering, though I believe Octane can network render too (though setting up an Octane render farm would probably be a good deal pricier).
...anything that is GPU driven will be more expensive. The downside is you are limited to the memory of a single GPU so if the file doesn't fit you're back to CPU rendering. Not sure of how the speed advantage breaks down core-wise with multiple GPUs in network mode. In the case of GPU rendering, you are probably better off (cost wise) with a single system and the most powerful GPU(s) you can get. It still isn't cheap as say, a pair of 16 GB P5000s will set you back 5,000$ - 6,000$ alone.
Jon, DAZ Studio using 3Delight can not network render (that's why DAZ Studio has an unlimited cores on one PC version - The big studio paid for version has a limited number of cores use). You can do sneaker net though with DAZ Studio on computers you own, but it's only good if you are doing animation and you are rendering different series of frames on your different computers. That will save you time. 3Delight sells an expensive version that does network rendering (you would have to export RIB files, etc., and I think it's command line - no GUI). DAZ Iray might do network rendering down the road. Octane does already I think but without checking OTOY to see for sure.
So right now, for DAZ Studio with 3Delight you want to build a big workstation with a couple processors and the most cores and memory you can afford. For Iray use, a PC with a top of the line GPU(s), or for animation, multiple PCs with their own GPU(s). But be prepared for a BIG electric bill!
There was a guy on the Carrara forum who had a network rendering setup in his garage, with heavy duty wiring to handle the electricity for all the stripped down computers he had (I think using just VNC to control them) and he had BIG electric bills.