Future of Daz Studio

sura_tc

Serene Night said:

Sounds like you are happy and that is what counts. 

Well, less stressful.

I was grumbling a fair bit about not having what I want on Daz. Now, I don't do that anymore. If there isn't what I want, I make them. Texture packs on Daz has become meaningless for me as well since it's easy to modify existing, original, textures products come with.

If you look at my Daz gallery, you will find that none of my renders heavily involve Daz products.

FSMCDesigns

Serene Night said:

sura_tc said:

It is true that Daz render is frowned upon outside of this community here due to the fact that it's just mix & match with stock assets. In other words, anyone using Daz products end up having very similar looking characters

At some point one does what interests one, not for the approval of a community of nay sayers. To me downvoting someone merely because they use a modeling program they dissaprove of seems.... Petty. I wouldn't care for such a person's opinion.

While I agree on the petty part, DS isn't a modeling program and that is where part of the problem lies.

 

ebergerly said:

Or maybe the "snobs" are merely looking at what people produce and arent impressed. I can certainly understand that.

That makes a lot of sense when you look at the skill involved in moldeing everything including original textures over using store bought assets. The end result for both might be great, but the work involved is much different. As a modeler i know I am much more impressed with an image when I know the creator made most of it and it is unique looking.

 

wolf359 said:

ebergerly said:

Or maybe the "snobs" are merely looking at what people produce and arent impressed. I can certainly understand that.

 

No it is an evil conspiracy to destroy the self esteem of daz users causing the creation of mutual validation threads. In these forums.

LMAO!

kyoto kid

DrNewcenstein said:

nonesuch00 said:

sura_tc said:

I consider Daz as an easy entry to 3D modelling. That's how I started to learn 3D modelling. I still use Daz assets (mostly hair since they are cheap) but I don't use Daz characters anymore since anyone familiar with 3D recognizes it and down-votes it.

It is true that Daz render is frowned upon outside of this community here due to the fact that it's just mix & match with stock assets. In other words, anyone using Daz products end up having very similar looking characters.

I've seen quite a few disparate characters in the DAZ gallery and as with real 3D modeling outside the DAZ world it's simply a matter of making bespoke textures and post processing and FX for DAZ models to lend morphed based geometries used in renders a air of bespoke originality.

They are free to disreguard someone like myself's 3D modeling and even texturing skills, that's just common sense comparison of hobby renderer compared to professional or hobby 3D modeler, but really it is getting easier and easier to create technically better and interesting original renders and scenes using DAZ content. Wityh that then it's simply a matter of story telling in a render. 

And this is where a lot of the "cork sniffers" fall flat: they can't tell a good story.

Ready-made assets are no different than a typewriter and paper, or pencils, or ink and canvas. They are merely the tools. How many of the physical media snobs made their own media? Not many, I assure you. And yes, that is the exact comparison. Michelangelo bought blocks of marble from a quarry that were mostly pre-shaped into blocks. He did not carve them out of the earth himself, and it certainly doesn't come out in large obelisks ready for chiseling. 

Storytellers use ready-made tools to tell their story, because the story is what matters, not the tools.

"It's not the arrow, it's the hunter".

...

The points I have been trying to make.

kyoto kid

j cade said:

I am all for a new version I just don't see why it needs to have a 5 to be meaningful. Bring on 4.12, 4.20, 4.99 etc.

Hell, get a new sdk but keep it at 4 just for giggles. End the use of version numbers altogether. Bring on Daz Studio Eternal!!! 

 

I'd also be good with a Studio 4.þ or 4.∆

...

Serene Night

FSMCDesigns said:

 

While I agree on the petty part, DS isn't a modeling program and that is where part of the problem

Yes that’s true. I probably should’ve used another word.

ebergerly

It's interesting when you consider that as technology progresses it requires less and less human input/creativity/talent to produce good stuff. I mean, just about any artistic or other endeavor can be done mostly by computer. Look at music for example. You can buy an electronic keyboard where you press a few buttons and it produces a bass track, drums, etc., all by itself. You can produce an entire song even if you have virtually no musical talent. Trust me, I've done it, and I have zero musical talent.

Same goes for software development. Way back when you needed to code in assembly/machine language, working directly with bits and bytes and registers. It was very difficult, and it took a lot of time and hard work and skill and understanding to produce something that was good. Now you can download a free app from Microsoft and it does all of that for you. Much of the stuff you need to do is available in pre-made libraries. 

Same goes for 3D rendering. No matter what you might think, at the end of the day you really have to respect those who take a brush and some paint and compose a masterpiece. There are very few on this planet who can really do that well, so you have to understand that some people hold a lot of respect for that kind of talent. And rightly so. 

I think if we're being objective and honest we can understand that the "snobbery" we like to deride is based on something that honestly I think we all can understand to some degree. If someone sits down at an electronic keyboard and presses some buttons to produce a nice tune, how much do we, or should we, respect that talent and skill?

Now of course there are some who can take the electronic keyboard and program it in such a way that it produces a top 10 hit. But unless we're producing top 10 hits, that's kind of irrelevant. 

So I think it's reasonable that people hold less respect for the stuff produced by someone who relies on tools that do most of the work, especially if the product is something that they look at and say "Hmm...is that supposed to be good or something?". Now if we're certain that 90% of the stuff that we produce is worthy of an Emmy award or something, that's a different story. But I doubt that's the case.     

agent unawares

I feel pretty much the same way. I have a huge and profound respect for a lot of electronica artists, but I also understand the feelings of traditional musicians who feel that, maybe not those specific artists, but that type of work tends to be "pushing buttons." The same thing goes for, say, DJs. There is absolutely no denying that there are clever people out there who can make something entirely their own using only pieces of other people's work, but throw one into a chamber music ensemble and maybe that DJ has to work a little harder to impress.

Serene Night

I dunno. I don’t have this same degree of holy awe  for fine art really. I was a an art major and fine artists cheat just as much as they accuse 3d artists of doing. Often photos are traced images copied and compositions borrowed from sources. It’s how we learn.  To deride someone for not being original and using 3d as their medium while shamelessly copying yourself from sources doesn’t exactly give you any superior cred in my book. All artists copy and borrow at some point or other.

plus the assumption that because someone uses 3d they can’t also draw or paint is not always true.

but whatever. There are many who like to feel that they are better because of their particular method. Hopefully that works for them as long as possible. 

 

Petercat

Serene Night said:

I dunno. I don’t have this same degree of holy awe  for fine art really. I was a an art major and fine artists cheat just as much as they accuse 3d artists of doing. Often photos are traced images copied and compositions borrowed from sources. It’s how we learn.  To deride someone for not being original and using 3d as their medium while shamelessly copying yourself from sources doesn’t exactly give you any superior cred in my book. All artists copy and borrow at some point or other.

plus the assumption that because someone uses 3d they can’t also draw or paint is not always true.

but whatever. There are many who like to feel that they are better because of their particular method. Hopefully that works for them as long as possible. 

 

Agreed. The world is full of this kind of snobbery.
"You can't call yourself a (artist, truck driver, salesman, cyclist, whatever) unless you (narrow qualification that includes speaker but not speakee)."
Of course, no one person has the authority to tell one what they can call themselves.
Personally, I don't care. Sometimes it's the journey, sometimes it's the destination.
Whatever. If you think you're an X, then by all means call yourself an X.
Just don't try and tell others that they can't.

agent unawares

Serene Night said:

I dunno. I don’t have this same degree of holy awe  for fine art really.

You write, right? How would you feel if someone asked you to critique a novel made from cut-and-pasted choose your own adventure books? It might be really good but I'd think there would be that momentary "uh, what" disconnect from the way you personally do things. That's what a lot of artists trained to always model their own content feel about DAZ stuff.

EDIT: like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_(art)

I had to think about it for a really long time before I could come to grips with the idea that this was actually art. I think for a lot of people it triggers that same "whaaaat the heck" feeling.

kyoto kid

...coming from a lifetime background in traditional art media as well as years of classical based music training (including composition), this discussion has moved in an interesting direction.

Ever score music by hand?  It is a horribly tedious task especially when composing for an ensemble.  Now I have the utmost respect for the masters like Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Debussy and Messiaen who all did so.  However, being able to improvise or compose a work using say an 88 note digital piano linked to a computer that has software which can not only set up and print a musical score but assist with orchestration, would have been a total godsend compared to how I had to deal with it.  Does it cause the music to be any "lesser" in quality because I didn't slave and sweat over writing it all out by hand? No, it is just using a different toolset to achieve the same objective one that eliminates much of the drudge work involved that has no effect on the end product.

When I no longer could paint or draw like I used to, I could have just quit and walked away.  Instead I looked for some other means to continue with it, which just so happened to be using a media that many of my then peers looked down their noses at, 3D CG.  In concept, is a mesh like Genesis any different than a lump of clay?  You morph and shape both, just using different tools. By the same token, shaders aren't all that much different than a set of pre formulated paints.  With both you mix this and that and adjust various combinations of "parameters" to get the desired result.

I have seen some incredible, breathtaking 3D work using premade content.  So who cares if it wasn't done on a canvas with paints, or wasn't modelled and textured from the nothing. If it achieves the goal of the creator, which is ti touch the viewer, move the viewer, tell a story, to me that is successful art.

Serene Night

There is a difference between the written word and fine art. And there are plenty of artistic mediums which involve using prepared material such as collage, paper mache, airbrush etc. photography, comics etc.

Also many artists trace and copy or borrow from others ip. Just looking at deviant art I would guess at least half if not more of the images are inspired by others stuff.

The unless you model it yourself it’s not really art  is a conceit that I don’t ascribe to. 

agent unawares

Serene Night said:

There is a difference between the written word and fine art. And there are plenty of artistic mediums which involve using prepared material such as collage, paper mache, airbrush etc. photography, comics etc.

Also many artists trace and copy or borrow from others ip. Just looking at deviant art I would guess at least half if not more of the images are inspired by others stuff.

The unless you model it yourself it’s not really art  is a conceit that I don’t ascribe to. 

Neither do I! But some people do, and that kneejerk "there is a difference between the written word and fine art" reaction you had, that is what people who have been trained differently feel about DAZ. They think "there is a difference between digital and physical media" and that's what informs their personal line of "not original" when they're generally totally fine with painting or photographing someone from life.

Serene Night

I’m actually extremely inclusive about art. I would consider paper dolls  and rock cairns to be art. But nope I would consider writing cut and pasted  to be creative writing.

Some historic books are actually copies of other writers stuff. Some of which are hailed as the greatest books of all time.

agent unawares

Serene Night said:

I’m actually extremely inclusive about art. I would consider paper dolls  and rock cairns to be art. But nope I would consider writing cut and pasted  to be creative writing.

Yep, that's just where your line wound up falling. I don't think anyone consciously decides "X is acceptable in visual art but not in writing" or "X is acceptable in physical art but in not digital art" or "X is acceptable if you hand craft but not if you use a machine," I think it all just falls out of what we personally put effort and stock into.

Serene Night said:

Some historic books are actually copies of other writers stuff. Some of which are hailed as the greatest books of all time.

All the really old classics are fanfiction. All of them. I don't really understand what shift happened that the normal thing to do now is despise that sort of thing.

nonesuch00

This tread reminds me of a movie called Little Miss Sunshine about 10 years ago. It got rave reviews and laudits for it's orginality. So I watched it and all I could think was this movie is a blatant rip-off of National Lampoon's Vacation. Neither was astounding funny, entertaining, or original but both were professional with good reviews. Neither was anything close to what a typical I Love Lucy show would draw in smiles and laughs.

wolf359

I Come from a traditional art background
of detailed shaded pencil drawings to airbrush io acrylic paintings of still
lifes and sea scapes.

I have had my paintings  in showings in the Del Ray artisan center
in my home town of  historic Alexandria Virginia.

Never have I met a more wretched hive of pretentious ,entitled, self important
dilitante's than those in the "fine art" world where your political 
social affiliations supercedes actual talent by light years.

Here At age 54 ,I have long since left traditional media in favor digital.

Only in the past year have  I had this "NZT brain drug" style ephiphany
in 3D modeling after decades of not "getting it".

However this was due to the necessity of needing to
Stay with an older generation of Daz figures for animation 
purposes( G1-2 .)

The DAZ genesis figures give me all of the versatility I 
need but not the DAZ clothing content, so I now make my own

The problem with purists is that they rarely seem to have a large body
of their  "pure"work to show anyone

In my "fine art" days the people who though acrylics were inferior to
mixing your own linseed oils and pigments, NEVER had any paintings to show 

Many animators, in other forums, beleive that my use of human mocap
data and other automated motion creation solutions like 
mimic lipsynch is not "real" animation.

But when I ask to see their pure hand keyed animated
works with multiple 
talking humans in multiple environments 
of ten minute length or more,
again they dont have anything subsantial to show.

I  will use prefab content  or make my own 
as well as long as it tells my stories the way I want.

agent unawares

wolf359 said:

But when I ask to see their pure hand keyed animated

works with multiple 
talking humans in multiple environments 
of ten minute length or more,
again they dont have anything subsantial to show.

The lack of demonstration could be because you put these bizarre restrictions on all your requests. People can't just show their hand-keyed animated figures, no, they have to show multiple figures, in multiple places, all talking, and the video has to be at least ten minutes long. People can't just show dForce working properly to animate clothing, no, they have to show dForce working properly to animate clothing, specifically during a walk cycle, and the video has to be at least ten seconds long. Etcetera.

Nobody needs to match the exact content of your videos to prove they can do something.

Daywalker Designs

nonesuch00 said:

Daywalker Designs said:

nonesuch00 said:

kyoto kid said:

...I have the capability to transfer the shapes and morphs to G3 through GenX and really have no difficulty doing so, so why would I need to do so manually?

Not bothering with G8 as like I mentioned I am not in the position to make another hefty investment, in this case, to make G8 as versatile and useful as G3 is. I am living below the poverty line on SS and have to be extremely frugal with what I purchase in the future as well as resourceful with what I already have.  I am quite satisfied with the results I have been achieving with G3 and honestly see little need to adopt G8 for my purposes. 

Well then I don't see why you are worried about DAZ Studio 5 then either. If you are comfortable with old and unsupported technology than simply add DAZ Studio 4.10.x to that list and stop fretting about DAZ Studio 5 loosing support for GenX really.

 

I don't see why a new version is so highly "needed"...

If you don't need it then you are welcome also to stay at a version you like too. I still have the Macromedia MX Suite from 2005 and it still works and no one will stop you either if you don't want to upgrade to DAZ Studio 5.

DAZ 3D though does believe they need DAZ Studio 5 just like every other business are planning their future competitively in the market place.

If they really felt they needed it, they have had plenty of opportunities to move to version 5 before now. That they haven't done so with each of the admittedly major features added (Iray, for example) means that they're waiting for something else to do that.

xyer0

@kyoto kid: Have you updated to DS 4.10? And, if so, does GenX2 still work with it?

nonesuch00

Daywalker Designs said:

nonesuch00 said:

Daywalker Designs said:

nonesuch00 said:

kyoto kid said:

...I have the capability to transfer the shapes and morphs to G3 through GenX and really have no difficulty doing so, so why would I need to do so manually?

Not bothering with G8 as like I mentioned I am not in the position to make another hefty investment, in this case, to make G8 as versatile and useful as G3 is. I am living below the poverty line on SS and have to be extremely frugal with what I purchase in the future as well as resourceful with what I already have.  I am quite satisfied with the results I have been achieving with G3 and honestly see little need to adopt G8 for my purposes. 

Well then I don't see why you are worried about DAZ Studio 5 then either. If you are comfortable with old and unsupported technology than simply add DAZ Studio 4.10.x to that list and stop fretting about DAZ Studio 5 loosing support for GenX really.

 

I don't see why a new version is so highly "needed"...

If you don't need it then you are welcome also to stay at a version you like too. I still have the Macromedia MX Suite from 2005 and it still works and no one will stop you either if you don't want to upgrade to DAZ Studio 5.

DAZ 3D though does believe they need DAZ Studio 5 just like every other business are planning their future competitively in the market place.

 

If they really felt they needed it, they have had plenty of opportunities to move to version 5 before now. That they haven't done so with each of the admittedly major features added (Iray, for example) means that they're waiting for something else to do that.

You missed the post where the PA said that the DAZ Studio developers have stated that DAZ Studio 5 will use an upgraded SDK. And as far as scheduling plenty of folk guess the next DAZ character that will be released and get that wrong over in the Platinum Club section of the forums because DAZ doesn't publicize product releases until they are ready. Same with DAZ Studio 5.

Personally, I'm not excited about a DAZ Studio 5 but it's not reason to dread either. Speculation about future DAZ products is common in the forums but doesn't speed up or slow down DAZ's own plans one bit.

kyoto kid

xyer0 said:

@kyoto kid: Have you updated to DS 4.10? And, if so, does GenX2 still work with it?

...yes and yes, though I am using the latest Beta to keep 4.9 active just in case I run into bugs that mess with the workflow. 

kyoto kid

...my one thought with Daz 5.x would be if they implemented an expanded import capability to include .3ds and .lwo as transferrable formats. Hopefully this happens in a future 4.x update.

WendyLuvsCatz

a decent FBX import would go a long way

Poser has one now

WendyLuvsCatz

bit off topic but related

was looking in fastgrab and there are certainly some relics there today many unsupported

ebergerly

wolf359 said:

I have had my paintings  in showings in the Del Ray artisan center
in my home town of  historic Alexandria Virginia.

Never have I met a more wretched hive of pretentious ,entitled, self important
dilitante's than those in the "fine art" world where your political 
social affiliations supercedes actual talent by light years.

It's reassuring to know that they are all untalented snobs who look down on others, but we're the ones with real talent and never look down our noses. 

freni-kyn

As far as I can see daz is totally accepted in the cg community.  However with the new game liscensing it looks like they are trying to get a stronger foothold in the gaming community.  And although I am not working on game projects I'm cheering them on.  Go DAZ3D!

 

ZippyGuitar

Llynara said:

LMAO!!! The future sounds quite entertaining! 

I'm pretty sure DAZ Studio has a bright future. Their marketing strategty is brilliant- give away the software, make the $$$ on the content. I've dropped more $$$ here than I ever imagined I would, and have loved every minute of it. I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

Ditto! Hahaha I suspect Daz will be around for quite a while. They seem to be good at testing the waters so tiny speak and figuring out what works.

wolf359

".my one thought with Daz 5.x would be if they implemented
 an expanded import capability to include .3ds and .lwo as
 transferrable formats. 
Hopefully this happens in a future 4.x update."

Why??
Lightwave will import Daz exported object files just fine.
and will export Lightwave meshes to Daz compatible .obj files

 

 "People can't just show their hand-keyed animated figures,
 no, they have to show multiple figures, in multiple places, all talking,"

People can show whatever they wish Mate

But when they make universal statements like:

 "All auto lipsynch is rubbish and should be hand keyed".

then yes I will ask to see their lovingly hand keyed work
in a REAL WORLD scenario ..not a theoretcial one
perhaps a paid client  job were the client decides the length
and environments  ..not just short controled  test demo renders of theirs.

when they say "Cinema4D has excellent character animation tools
 and does not need  mocap retargeting"

Yes.. I will ask to see some of their hand keyed work where Characters are being struck 
and being knocked down with ragdoll physics.

These type of animation options are important to the kinds of commercial animation I do
maybe others do not need these features..bloody good for them

But any hand keyframe purists
who insists I should hand key everything will be asked by me to show specific
hand keyed examples that acheives
the same dynamic output I and my paying clients demand. 

"People can't just show dForce working properly to animate clothing, no, they have to show dForce working properly to animate clothing
 specifically during a walk cycle,"

Not an unreasonable request IMHO
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/223316/dear-pas-with-products-dforce-labeled#latest

 

Daywalker Designs

nonesuch00 said:

Daywalker Designs said:

nonesuch00 said:

Daywalker Designs said:

nonesuch00 said:

kyoto kid said:

 

You missed the post where the PA said that the DAZ Studio developers have stated that DAZ Studio 5 will use an upgraded SDK. And as far as scheduling plenty of folk guess the next DAZ character that will be released and get that wrong over in the Platinum Club section of the forums because DAZ doesn't publicize product releases until they are ready. Same with DAZ Studio 5.

Personally, I'm not excited about a DAZ Studio 5 but it's not reason to dread either. Speculation about future DAZ products is common in the forums but doesn't speed up or slow down DAZ's own plans one bit.

Not at all; I'm trying to point out that they've already had a number of opportunities to develop and release a completely new software version with the accompanying plugin sdk and have instead elected to extend the existing one with new features.