How are you acheiving realism with skins and faces?
Ademnus
Posts: 744
It's clear these body models are superbly textured and some of the renders I have seen look like real people -but mine keep having that "porcelain doll" look -lifeless and plastic.
Is it all in the lighting? How are those of you who are achieving great realism doing it? What are your tips and tricks?
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Mostly via making them a bit more glossy but not too much and upping the bump map strengths for the skin portion of the textures to 1.25 - 2.0, it depends on the bump map. I haven't posted any such renders I've done like that but it does make them look more realistic.
Lighting seems to be the crucial factor, I think. I've had very realistic looking renders just in test mode with the default Environment HDR and camera headlamp. Conversely I've spent hours tweaking lights and getting dull, lifeless skins.
I don't concentrate on portraits because I render story scenes rather than art poses so the photo-studio set-up doesn't really go with what I'm doing. So I tend to rely on the HDR dome for outside and Ghost Lights plus one spot for interiors. It helps if the spot is not directly behind the camera otherwise the skin looks flat again. A bit of offset is good for reflected specularity (though I'm certainly not speaking as an expert - mostly trial and error for me).
To me, there is plenty of things that are important, but mostly about the skin itself rather than light, because to my belief a realistic skin should still look realistic, if it is just sun that shines on you
As others said, to dim or too bright a light and the skins look flat.
For me I never know, the more I tweek the lights & skin surfaces, the less returns I get for my improvements on my renders unless it is tweeking the morph sliders, expressions, and poses - time spent there pays off. I'm rendering now and this time the skin on both characters is OK, although toon style, but the hair on the lady toon looks oddly 2D despite the complexity of her hair style...
Natural light via HRDIs and other methods used with portrait studio lighting style setups don't mix too well unless you obscure that you've done that in postwork - eg bright lights from majic and explosions typical in comics, sci-fi, and wizardry render art.
EcVh0, please sell your tutoriall ,I buy it. maybe many user hope someone offer more conprehensive one, I believe.
I really feel interesting about daz uber iray shader, Translucency and SSS, reflaction,, parameters to correctly use, with thin wall on and off.
It not means I learn each shader construcus or filed of MDL with Iray hand books.
What I hope to learn is about DAZ uber iray shader parameters. with more detail and actuall Photo with simple light setting.
'(so hope if you write document, we can follow same step, without additional new product ^^;)
You need both good skin and good lighting. If either is lacking, it looks bad.
Rim lighting, three point lighting, look it up or buy a set. The big thing is to give a subject dimension , which generally requires contrast and light from at least one side. Even or head on light makes the subject look very flat.
If your subject is in a scene, use depth of field and be sure to have extra light on the subject so it stands out, or it'll all muddle together.
I really agree EcVh0 order. then hope those vendor, who actually clear know how to use daz uber iray shader propert ,effectively sell tutoriall or document about default uver iray shader ,which we usually use for most of surface.
Of course we need both (light and surface setting) to final render, but I do not think we can learn lighting techinic and daz uber iray shader property setting at same time.
About iray, ther are already many light product set. in web there are many HDRI sets , we can download or buy. there are already tons of lighting techinic tutorial in web. most of them can adopt for daz iray render too. but I think we still have no real comprehensive daz uber iray shader tutoriall, still. it tend to so large aspect but too shallow , or not show clear, each property detail, and how to mix up them correctly, with each basic, common but many variety case. but tend to for one purpose only.
even though vendor offer as each month series, (eg for HDRI , for simple scene only with 3light portlaight, or for enhance SSS etc,,) I must buy every month, if it is really clear, and actually I can follow them ,with their render which use those shader property correctly and effectively.
I agree from the renders of EcVh0 that I will buy their new skin shader set and is created to look good for a variety of tones.
Can EcVh0 post the names of the light sets, HRDIs, or render settings (not the Surface settings) of those renders? They look good but not in a forced sort of way. Or maybe that is a reflection of their skin shaders?
Yeah sometimes when you go the wrong way in tweaking skin surfaces, it just never goes to the right way and it just looks more and more off the balance, I guess that's when you should start from scratch again, but hey maybe you are close
typical life dilemma when you are trying to achieve a goal - "should I keep going or should I try again" 
Haha thank you! I'm happy that some people likes my way of approaching skin
, It's nowhere considered convensional, or probably considered crazy for some.
I'm sure I'm no where near the top but I've been getting results I like
For actual photo with simple light setting, hey you find the right guy!
I intend to keep my belief and work all of my renders by that - as natural as possible! It might not look "arty" or "amazing" like those carefully placed lightsets with different colors, but I guess we humans don't get a lightset following around us all the time 
To be honest I have no idea how I should write a document to explain XD, maybe I should show the skin in steps? I dunno... and I could start a thread analyzing my scenes?
And if I ever make a tutorial, I will intend to release it for free
Thank you!
Sure! Which scenes do you want to see? I should probably start a thread
All I have is:
And boom hit render
Thanks. I seem to understand some of your more realist effect skin, to me at least, is by using the the diffuse map in the translucency color slot?
Hmm, yes and no :)
The only reason for me putting a diffuse map into SSS slot is because the character with the texture does not have a good SSS map - here I do define "good SSS map" differently than others
My good SSS map is defined as a map that is skin colored, with all skin tone details in it, even better if the skin detail itself is in as well
if you have such SSS map ready, plug in the SSS map and get rid of the diffuse map completely!
I found out that in fact SSS map shows texture the same, if not even better in term of skin tones and reaction to light / strong light than a diffuse map, that's why I completely ditched the diffuse map and put the actual skin in SSS :)
Lucky,, I have already the HDRI ^^; though I used it for cycles,,,
then,,,,,,I hope to know, your skin shader setting of SSS...
though I know, it should change with each texture, and which shader property Vendor like to use, depend on each skin mat vendor,
then can not summaraize as one rule or one recommend value,,
but hope to know mostly about SSS setting , eg when you need more deep clear SSS, , which parameter you mainly use? turn up transulucensy?
I really confuse about daz uber iray SSS way,, Diffuse translucency shader is for SSS? it is same as usuall SSS absorb? it is not what I know about other SSS shader,,
Assuming you're starting from Iray characters, and not skins that were made for 3delight:
1. Set the metallic flakes to .02 on any given skin.
2. Turn the translucency and SSS down. Yes, I said DOWN. Not more than 0.5 unless the character's an albino.
3. Test render. Turn the top coat up or down as needed if it's now too glossy. Generally this gives a more realistic specularity to almost any skin. Our Beautiful Skin Iray's free Realism 2017 update reflects this.
4. Do not use the default HDR and always check your camera and turn off the headlamp in Parameters. This alone is the cause of a lot of "dead Iray skin" issues. The sky system isn't great for skin either. I would turn the fstop down to 10 or 11 and only use it for fill if you're using it at all; for the actual skin use a three point system. HDRs in general are not as good for skin as three point lighting, but a mid-contrast one (like the Direct presets from DimensionTheory's light probe sets) is pretty good.
Here's a tutorial on three point lighting: https://sickleyield.deviantart.com/journal/Tutorial-Three-Point-Lighting-In-Iray-598282717
This sounds pretty much like the previous generation of skin shader I made, it does fine job at proper lights but won't work that well under natural lights such as HDRIs or scene lights.
I turned SSS up to 1 by the way
This, i totally agree, never turned on any headlamps cuz it ruins renders
*Slams table* Sir I have to disagree with you here, some HDRI enviroment is bad by the lights emitting (some emits blue lights like what??) but sun-sky and HDRI default is the best way to check if your skin is forced, or if your skin is naturally realistic
Here's a render I did this morning with just sun-sky enviroment, no post work
Hi EcVh0,
I too prefer to use the diffuse map in the translucency channel instead of the now (by most DAZ vendors) usual bw-map with that bothering intense red. Values "only" between .25 and .45 as proposed in the articles of the natural skin investigations for the different ethnic people.
But most times it is necessary to additionally perform some RGB corrections with the translucency- and reflectance tint color channel. This depends on the overall color of the skin diffuse map and sometimes its really hard. And of cause it is up to the individual user to play with all the available parameters until it suits.
The light sets I use to test the outcome is a photostudio-like set and of cause outdoor with sun-sky.
Your render looks as if you did it in the very late afternoon? The sun strongly tended into the golden orange already.
My test for G8:
Glad we agree on that! However plugging diffuse map straight into SSS would be a last measure for me, because most of the diffuse map here does not provide the color and detail I need for the skin, so rather than that I usually use the diffuse map to make a proper SSS map that will work as the main texture, and it probably saved the correction part but it's damn hard to find a good one that fits!
To be absolutely honest, I have no idea
, I actually couldn't tell which is which, and still pretty confused on how to do everything 
Actually, to me the skin SSS can be summarized into a few categories: olive skin, pale(pink and yellow) skin, black skin and yellow skin, each of them have a unique SSS settings to best show off their skin tones, but for all I have an SSS map which is detailed, colored like skin and have translucency strength turned up to 1 and translucency color white and SSS mode to chrono
If you have V8's default skin, you can totally start from there
LOL, do you mind posting the lighting setup preset for the render and telling the texture set you used for those two DAZ models because the 'corrected' one is how the DAZ Store ad copy usually portrays what I'm buying but when I render I get the 'uncorrected' version that you posted. Now, I'd like a wide variety of skin tones but most of the content is DAZ Store ad looks like 'corrected' and my renders look like 'uncorrected'.
So I'm guessing that is G8F texture set which I still get the very dark renders. Some lighting on both corrected & uncorrected?
Could you also post the material preset for the corrected version? I followed you DA directions & it improved things but if you rearranged diffused and other maps in the slots I didn't notice that in your DA posts.
And would using the same shader settings, not material textures and maps though, on a character like Amaya, ruin her texture to be unrealistically too light? Could you test Amaya or similar naturally dark character?
Thanks EcVh0, ( To tell the truth,, I bought your iray shader for G3 when I found your product
)
I will play your recommend setting. (I know it depend on texture, but can grab how work I believe, even though I plug in color only at start)
I have avoided to get new product for G8. but I am concerning , maybe many mat preset for G8 change with new SSS mode... then I may plan to get one of them which I like. (I plan to start tweaking G8 mat first, I still not clear understand new SSS mode usage. then compare default G8 skin at current.( maybe gradually lerning I think) thanks many adivice.)
Hi EcVh0,
Oh yes, that's true. Most of the available diffuse textures are ...
Some vendors even still add glossy appearence into it. And of cause the textures ever show the results of light falling from a certain direction on it (shadowing effects of the smalles wrinkles included). Normally the light & shadow effect should only result out of the displacement / bump map and the used scene lights.
@ nonesuch00:
In principle the skin setting is what is shown here (table on the right) with the corresponding textures of G8F.
I attached my 2 standard light presets.
And: The compare picture is only one render - both chars in the same scene side by side.
I first stumbled about that dark skin for the Ryan 7 character. That was the reason for me to post a corresponding thread why the real tone of the products isn't corresponding to what is shown in the promos. So same experience what you complained about.
Now that you mentioned it, I went back and checked out the promo images of V8's skin and then I was like: Wow! How much photoshop/light correction have they done to make her look sooo different!???
Thank you for supporting me! :D
To be absolutely honest, there isn't much changed between G8 and G3 in terms of the skin texture, however, the new Iray engine is a big upgrade to skin realism :)
I haven't clearly understand exacly how the new SSS works just yet, but at least I'm going in some right direction XD
Shhhhhhh
I can see a lot of desperations adapting from 3DL, which is understandable because people would do anything to get details onto the skin on a biased render engine
But only a few moves forward from there, which is again, understandable because they have not yet been challenged, in the same program of course, with a more realistic skin than theirs
Yes I think so, (it is just about shader up-date, then to be honeslty I felt strange, when someone or said, G8 have good skin more than G3, or V8 have good skin more than V7) ,if it work for new figure, it still work for G3 and V7. but,,, you and other vendor will often use new SSS property and add texture for it to enhace mat.
and I think new SSS property can do more,, , and that is what I hoped too. but still can not clear, how they will be circulated and use correclty.
then make good skin texture for those new property and mix correctly, it can not do by my self never, I feel so, I can not. I can make simple shader with shader mixer,or tweak each property, or hobby modeling, or make new brush,, or bake normal for simple props,,l etc,, but I can not paint good realistic human skin, never.
then I bought yours good texture, and see yours how use shader, with each setting, (and hope to modify a little
,, to more I like, by tweaking shader property,,)
I am now a littlie bit angry about daz document, but thanks you ,calm down me.
That's exactly right! G/V8 just explored the power of the new Iray engine, or simply the hidden power of the Iray engine in general, it can be done on any character, even V4!
The new way of approaching skin, I would call it a evolution, it's a complete new step that basically dumps the ideas from 3DL and start a new chapter of the skin rendering. And you know because it's new, there are many flaws and everyone can't get anywhere near 100% hold of it.
In fact, lots of skin textures they are selling right now already have the great texture we need, the only wrong thing they do is they chunk stuff in the wrong place, so time for some mix and match
Totally! Nothing is perfect and maybe you will get something even better than mine that I might beg you for your settings
Stay calm and keep rendering!
We will get there, one day
strange.
Here in the forum we have a German thread. And it is quite a long time ago we started to analyse the real skin physics and how to implement it into the material settings using the power of iRay. So for over one year all my characters have optimized settings already. The only lack is good textures (diffuse, normal), which are the base for good results.
The heck: kitakoredaz said it: "make a good skin texture (...) I can not do by myself (...)."
Thanks I am getting better results now but still not a computer I can practically make an interesting scenes on.
Well these two way of making skin (Diffuse way and SSS way) does exist long before us Irayers (I believe), at least that's what I have learnt in Octane 2 years back, and have been both developing really nicely along the way. I guess both have their goods and bads. Good textures are definitely really important but I don't really believe diffuse map would be the key to skin realism - otherwise most of us would've achieved that already
Edit: Ah now that I think of it, the ONLY difference between us and a character from zBrush or Blender, is the fact that we don't have microdetails sculpted onto the body, it just doesn't work as good even with normal applied