Advice Needed: From Marvelous Designer to dForce
Melissa Conway
Posts: 590
I purchased MD7 (for Steam) right before DAZ announced dForce. I've got creating in MD and importing into Studio down, but I'm missing something, because my clothes fall apart at the seams and then go splodey on me when I run the dForce sim. I thought it was a simple matter of ticking the "weld" box on export, but that doesn't seem to solve the problem. If a workflow tutorial already exists, I'd really appreciate a link to it, otherwise, can someone in the know briefly explain what I need to do? Thanks so much.
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So...
I don't use MD, but I do watch videos, because I like to understand how things work.
Getting very basic, a 3d object is nothing more than cloud of points in arbitrary space, with relationships assigned to them. So, how each engine deals with those points and relations will differ.
Both MD and dForce have mechanisms for saying "These points are related, even though the 3d object itself says they are not."
That is, you can put a pocket on a shirt and tell it "stay" in both engines. But HOW that works is different, and MD's data does not import to dForce.
Now, MD can, sometimes, create unwelded geometry based on MD modifiers, and if that's the kind of thing you have (adding "thickness" and then having all the bits that make thickness go boom) then the issue is somewhere in the MD side. Welding on export is not happening. If, OTOH, you have whole parts of the garment flying off, it's because those parts are only connected in the MD physics engine, and thus are not connected in the dForce engine.
How you fix that involves understanding this, https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203081, I hope. I really hope. It SEEMS like the answers are there, but I've not had time to really read it, or to update to dForce and test out the implications.
I know there are some very training wheels Daz tuts going up on youtube. I would recomend. dForce has potential, me thinks, but you are at "unlearn what you have learned," and based on the mass of data in the infodump above, there's a lot to learn. You probably need some experience with the Daz figure creation workflow to make use of it (I saw lots of geometry editor and weight map refs in there). It probably pays to make the flags wave, and to look at the warnings in the info dump about what does not work, then actually make the things that don't work to see exactly what happens when they don't. That way, when an MD import explodes, you might recognize the behavior and know what it is that broke.
Thanks for responding, Singular Blues. I appreciate that you took the time to do so. I've been furiously watching video tutorials, reading posts on several forums (including pretty much everything here), and poring over the MD manual. I got to the point where it felt like I was either not using the right search terms, or the people who have the info I need are keeping it close to the vest. Case in point, this thread. While it's entirely possible the crickets in the audience (exception: you) are simply a result of no one in the know having *seen* it, it's also possible they don't want to share. I know for a fact there are people who make MD clothing that they've then imported into studio and successfully applied dForce to. I would be happily willing to PAY for the information at this point! (Frustration level: Maximum.)
They shouldn't be falling apart at the seams. Are you exporting Weld, Thin, Single Object?
Yes to all three. And thanks for popping in! Your tut in the "Marvelous Designer 7 Released" thread was very instructive. I'm wondering now whether the Steam version of MD may be glitchy. I've had other weird things happen, too...
I use the steam version of MD and it works fine for me.
As AgentUnawares says you must export as welded.
I use MD 6.5 not 7 and I am still very new at it.
I did have your problem happen when choosing "weld" for a multi -part pattern instead of "weld selected patterns in workspace". I don't know it that helps you.
That's what threw me off when I tried to dForce-ify a piece of clothing I'd made in MD: the one I made for Dawn wasn't welded, and it fell apart and went kersplode. The refit for Genesis 3 was welded, and while it didn't fall apart.... it still when explode on me. Though I probably didn't choose quadrangles... bah. Once I have a little more money, I'm going to resub to MD and try again.
Thanks, Xmasrose. I tried your solution, but for some reason "weld selected patterns in workspace" is greyed out. :(
Thanks for the quadrangle tip, Finlaena - but when I changed my mesh and re-exported, all I got from Studio was a series of errors and crashes. Sad face.
Get Blender. Don't worry, you won't be doing much in it, if you don't know blender. It's free, though and it will halp somewhat.
There seem to be only two possible reasons thing would go boom in dForce. 1) bad geometry. 2) bad dForce. I can't speak too much to dForce, but we can talk geometry. Please note, that the link I gave to Rob's thread actually supplies hints about dealing with bad geometry in dForce, but I'll not be getting into it because I don't full grasp it. What's important is you need to do some analysis of the mesh, and Blender is how that's going to happen.
So run Blender and go file > import Wavefront Obj. on the right side, in Import Obj panel click Keep Vert Order (massively important), uncheck polygroups, set Foward to -Z Forward and Up to Y Up Click the Plus sing next to Operator Presets. In the resulting Text box, typ Daz import and click okay. (You just saved those settings, so if you need to import a Daz object to blender in the future, you can call up the preset by clicking Operator Presets.) Browse to the model file, and select it, then click Import Obj at the top right.
In the viewport you may not see anything but an orange dot. Don't panic. Blender's base scale 1% of Daz's. The obj should be there, it's just 100 times bigger than your's used to. Press the dot (period, point) button on you number pad and viewport will move to fram the object. With object in view left click it. (blender is painfully weird with left clicking, but we won't be here long enough for that to matter)
Press tab. Newer blender has a radial menu that pops up here, which I find annoying. But meh. Select Edit Mode from the menu. Press Z. Should be another radial menu (because who doesn't like addition clicks to do things?) Select Wireframe. You should see a lot of yellow, now, and it should be a wireframe. If so, press A. It should stop with the being yellow.
At the bottom of the viewport window, find the Select Menu. Click it, and click either "Nonmanifold" or "Select by type>Nonmaifold"
Now we are ready to analyse the mesh. If the mesh is good, it should only have the outside edge vertexes selected. Any place where the geometry stops and is supposed to stop. Sleeve ends, hems, necks, cuffs, etc. If all is good at this point, then the issue is with dForce. If there are other places showing nonmanifold, like seams, then the mesh is the reason the sim is breaking. You need to remesh. And that's a tutorial beyond the scope of this post. If it is all good:
First look at the mesh and see if it has faces that intersect. dForce does not like this, and that could be the cause of the issue. You have to use your eyeballs for that. dForce compliant clothing has to be "possible" and lot of daz clothing isn't. So this is what you are looking for at this point. Does the clothing have impossible shapes, like surfaces that pass through each other, or other weirdness. If so, you need to fix the mesh. I can't recommend how, as this is a subject beyond this post. But at least you know where the issue is.
Of course, you CAN try not fixing the mesh, or if the mesh seems good, you'll be heading here next, anyway. Go back to Rob's post and look into the bits about setting parts of the mesh to not simulate, because that's probably why it's coming apart. This gets weird fast. But it might even be possible to do this if you looked a blender and ecided you had better things to do with your life.
Basically, you want to look through Rob's post and see which tools seem to be about pinning things together ot pinning them in place in simulation. I know that stuff is in there. You have to modify the figure to work as dForce expects. How you might work this out without blender is just let the thing explode. Then look at how it explodes. Actually watch the sim. Se where it is coming apart, and then rest, and use Rob's explanation of tool to try to pin those. One thing I noted is my reading there was the comment that there's is going to be a lot of repeated simulation. Basically, if the mesh isn't already perfect (and it won't be) you have to adjust, simulate, say "well that didn't work<" adjust again, simulate (repeat until finished or dead, whichever comes first) and so on. But it will, at least, result in functioning and compliant clothing.
Odds are most stuff (even the impossible outfits) can be made dForce compliant via this method of experiement with the tools, but I'm not sure about the issues with intersceting planes. That depends on the order in which dForce does things. One way, such impossible shapes can be worked around by basically preventing dForce every seeing them. The other way, dForce will always see them and always fail. I don't know which applies, but maybe someone else does.
How complex are your patterns ? Can you post a screenshot of your garment ?
What particle distance ? Test something higher (thus lower poly) . DForce isn't as efficient as MD or other software at handling high polys
Thanks Singular Blues. I do have Blender and am somewhat familiar with it. I, too, came to the conclusion that my dress has bad geometry. Most likely because of the way the neck scarf is draped (and possibly the fullness of the skirt).
Hi pdr0. Apparently my pattern is pretty complex! Had to be, because this style of clothing (Colonial American) isn't exactly popular, and I had to make it myself. Below is a quick render.
I want to thank everyone who's commented to help me work this out. This forum is a great community.
You could try remeshing. It's tedious, but not hard. You could even bake normals from the high oply version to a lower poly one.
I've considered using MD in this way to make daz clothing, because I find I don't like the way MD based meshes seem to turn out. That said, I haven't actuall done any of it, so I don't know if it is reasonable.
Your dress looks good!
You can also run the simulation in MD if you only need it for one render.
That's what I have done up to now even if I'd like to be able to use dForce in the futur.
Definitely something to consider. Thanks.
Thanks!
Yeah, I've been doing that (sims in MD). It works perfectly well for my purposes, for the time being anyway...
I think I found out why you can't select "weld selected patterns in workspace".
In MD you have to select all the pieces of the outfit in the 2D window before exporting.
If you're exporting with thickness then the seams won't be welded together even if you export with weld option because it generates the thickness for each section of the pattern individually instead of generating thickness for the entire mesh as a whole. This is why I do an L-extrude in post editing for all the clothes I make in Marvelous Designer to fake thickness (and save on geometry too). That way when you export with Weld all your pattern sections will actually be welded together.
If you're not exporting with thickness then I don't know why it's not exporting with a weld if you have the weld selected.
You're right! That did allow me to export with weld selected...sadly, it made no difference in the long run. Still no dForce joy.
Thanks for the suggestion, Ghastlycomic, but I never even attempted exporting with thickness. It just didn't sound dForce-friendly.
"Error during simulation. See log for details."
Would someone please tell me where to find the dForce log?
Thanks!
Help>Troubleshooting>View Log
Thanks, Richard.
Sorry to highjack the thread but seems like a good place to ask
Would you recomend Marvelous Designer still, now that Dforce has been announced? Designer is on sale right now for like 200 and I am on the fence
Yes. It's amazing for modeling clothes, and its simulation is still far ahead of DForce.
Yeah if you have interest in making your own clothes...its still super awesome. and the simulation is way faster than what I can get out of dforce. Exporting the OBJ into daz isn't hard. MD has a daz preset (for scale basically).
Been using it since 4.
I love MD, still failing to use Dforce in any publishable way.
Thanks for the responses. Guess I am about to hand over 200 to MD devs.
enjoy. I hope they continue to update as they have in the past. Typically there are a handful of useful updates that happen post release. This time I am staying with 6.5 as I keep upgrading but never use the new features. I almost bought the update myself...but I should be OK for another year or so.
Good luck, hope you find it enjoyable and meets your needs.
Thanks, I know it meets the needs. While I played with it in the past I never used it in production. Alittle worried the the time to learn the software and the reworking the final product it may take more time than just modeling the old way.
Nooooo. You can make serviceable clothing in under an hour once you learn MD.
Once you get a small amount of practice, I think it becomes apparent to the speed benefits. I am not sure of your specific needs, however I think it is a powerful tool that is actually mostly simple to use. Tweaking the sim does take a bit of practice, but again, it ends up working out rather nicely IMHO. There are a lot of guides on how to build things, so you hopefully it won't take more time in the long haul.
after all that is why I think most people use it. I used to model the old way, but for soft cloth stuff, MD is preferred. Still use the old method for metals and stuff :)