Bra Morph..?
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Unfortunately, that's not feasible via a displacement or bump map, as every clothing item has its own UVs, and displacement and bump maps are UV-dependent. A dForce approach is also limiting, as it obviously won't work on clothing items that aren't well designed for dForce.
The best general purpose approach for something like that would probably be something like Fit Control or the fit morphs in the Build-A-Cyborg set (which are intended to be transferred to clothing in order to fit over the bionics), using actual figure morphs which should then transfer to any worn clothing. The limitations here would be that it wouldn't work so well on more extreme figure morphs, but it should be possible to make it work fairly broadly across an entire generation.
It would be problematic to make it match any existing underwear, but if necessary, tight fitting geoshells could also be used to provide some texture detail to satisify translucent clothing.
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That said, I do fear working on such a project might feel like descending into "total perv" territory!
My projects as far as underwear for female figures have mostly been more about having access to less noticeable skivvies, so that they're not automatically forced to wear lacy nothings*, and even that feels kind of lecherous.
* So far, I've contrived some morphs for the G8F Basic wear and Sunny Bikini to shape them more like plain t-shirt bras; once refined, I hope to eventually release whatever I reasonably can as freebies.
Whether I'll get into creating things from scratch... we'll see. I've done it before, but that would involve more time spent with Daz's weight painting system, which I don't really like. I've spent yonks learning Blender's weight painting, to the point that I can smoothly weight-paint for engines that support as few as three weight links, but Daz refuses to properly import rigged files from Blender.
If we put the morph or displacement on the main figure it might work! Why is this pervy! Its just underwear! There is alot of skimp wear on this site that is a hell of alot more pervy than a underwear morph for added realism! But morality is subjective so I won't go into it any further!
I don't know if this is related to the original post but look at the two images attached. On the left is the default G8 shape. On the right is what happens if I apply any full body morph whatsoever. Never mind the poke-through. The shape of the breasts change and the clothing is pulled inward to match the shape of the breasts. So it looks like two bags wrapped around the breasts. A morph to make the breasts the shape of a bra might help a bit. It still wouldn't be adequate though because if the scene were viewed from the bottom then the oddly shaped breasts would be visible at times. It would be nice if there were something that made the outfit auto follow the position of the character, without the outfit auto following the shape of the character. Especially with dForce items (the shape following should be taken care of by the simulation).
And I agree, a morph that adds bra lines and panty lines would be worth paying for. I requested such a thing be added to a product once but the product creator was adamantly against any clothing that hinted at the shape of what was covered by the clothing.
Played with Mabel and tried the Breast natural morph -100. Better than nothing.
That doesn't have anything to do with whether the shape is "in bra" or natural, it's simply that there's no custom morph for the shape in the clothing so DS has to project one, based on which bits of the base mesh the cloth mesh should match - since the breasts are being enlarged but the sternum and abdomen stay put (or shirink in) different areas of the cloth move in different directions. The fact that clothing does, absent a dForce simulation, just follow the shape of the figure in this way is why the bra-less shapes are an issue (the cloth ends up tucked into the fold between the lower breast and the upper abdomen) is why the issue is so noticeable, of course.
Correct. Displacement maps are surfaces not geometry. It makes light think there's stuff to bounce off but it wouldn't physically interact with anything
I'm sorry to take so long to get this post done, and I see the convo took a right turn toward other, if pertinent issues. But I worked too long and hard on these images to not share them now!
Okay. Here are some examples of what I call a "braless" breast shape, representing a small sample of the female characters I have in my runtime. I kept the samples to the G3/G8 generation..These example are rendered from the side, creating a profile of the shape. (Image links to the full-size image, in a new window/tab.)
The whole point of wearing a bra, (pun unintended,) is to support the breast. Regardless of the braless shape, a well-fitting bra will result in a rounded shape. And any breast that is sagging will be lifted up. Here is a link to a Google image (photo) search of Victoria's Secret for "how a bra shapes the breast".
The base female shape of both G3 and G8 is modeled with a bra shape. Using the Breast Implants morph from their respective Body Morphs package, these renders show a reasonably realistic bra shape for average, small and large breasts. I've also included an additional front view using just the Breasts Small morph.
In the image above, 1 and 5 are the base female with no morphs applied; 2 and 7 have the Breast Implants morph dialed to -35%, the default lower limit of the morph; 3 and 8 dial the Breast Implants morph to 100%; and 4 uses the just the Breasts Small morph, to 100%. Although I didn't use the Breasts Cleavage morph, a well-fitting bra would also bring the large breasts of example 8 closer together, smoothing the sides somewhat.
Obviously, we can get the look of wearing a bra with these morphs, on the base figure. But I personally don't want all my female characters to look virtually identical from the neck down. I have hundreds of female characters, and I'd like to use their full shape morphs. I'd also like to have the option to change the breast shape for those times, (most of the time, for me,) when I want the figure to look like she's wearing a bra.
I would like to point out, Izabella 7 has a separate breast morph. The full shape morph loads all three morphs, Izabella 7 Head, Izabella 7 Body and Izabella 7 Breasts. Dialing down the Breasts morph changes her shape to look like she's wearing a bra. And this is exactly what those of us who want a "Bra Morph" are asking for, the ability to spin a dial and make the sexy braless shaped breasts into a more rounded shape.
The clothing fit is tangental to your original observation/complaint. I have an easy time making breasts sag, but then I also have a lot of morph packages from here and there because I like options and lack the skill (and interest in taking the time) to create deformations in other software packages. There are rather a few morph options out there for G3 and G8 breasts, I can't imagine why...
Excellent breakdown. Thank you!
I'm late to the party on this one, but I'd like to chime in a "wow it would be nice if we had some consistent tools for this." I model a lot of female characters, and a disproportionate amount of my time ends up going to shifting, moving, and where possible compressing the breasts so they look like they're both being supported in general and being supported in an appropriate way for the outfit and intent. Push up bras, sport bras, balconettes, (standard) strapless bras, bandeaus, and lots of other bra styles shape and support the bustline in predictable, distinctive ways. Honestly, I'm never sure why actual bras get modeled and sold through the Daz store without actually having morphs to go with it. It's weird to see Daz assets designed to look like $300 bras that don't actually shape or support in any way.
Honestly, I wonder if this is a natural next step for things like Fit Control or similar things made by Zev0, Sickleyield and others -- we had several iterations of 'un-boob-socking' clothing. Maybe next comes Breast Support for G8F -- sliders to model heavy support sports bras, heavy cleavage Wonderbra style clothes, balconette style 'sleek looks,' etc. Maybe with target morphs for different cup sizes and the like. It would be worth it to me, for sure.
To give some idea of what I do on my end, I loaded up a character (in this case FWSA Neve HD for Genesis 8) and dropped a basic tank top on her. I grabbed a snapshot of the default, very natural looking bustline. For the second snapshot, I used Zev0's Breast Control Genesis 8 exclusively -- only using posing, rather than actually changing the shaping of the breast itself -- to create the effect of a basic Sport Bra. In the third shot, I then used Zev0's Fit Control for Genesis 8 Female to make the tank top fit a little more properly over the result:
This involved setting the (Breast Control Pose Controls) Breast Height to 100%, Together/Apart to 50%, Move Up/Down to 65%, and Depth Adjust of -20%. This simulated a Sport Bra's lift, compression, and firm support for exercise.
As a test of this process, I then put Neve into a scene, and dressed her in the dForce Dystopian Future Outfit for Genesis 8 Females. This is a nice, drapey outfit which reacts well to figure shifts and variations. I added a light dForce wind, ran simulation, and rendered the scene both with and without the Sport Bra posing, and no other adjustments to the clothing:
Without Sport Bra:
With Sport Bra:
As you can see, the 'unsupported' figure stretches the mesh of the mesh shirt layer and creates a fold along the midsection. The wrap clumps around her shoulders more, she looks very slightly unbalanced, and she has a slightly slovenly 'feel' to her. The 'supported' figure, on the other hand, has the mesh shirt look undistorted, the over-wrap fits more smoothly, there is generally a more attractive line to the clothing folds, and Neve herself both looks neater and better balanced. In real life, she'd also have less of a backache.
In the case of the two renders, I didn't even use the Fit Control smoothing I did on the tank top, and as I said above I didn't change the actual breast shape -- I just used the advanced posing options in Breast Control. That's the kind of thing that a support garment simulator could bring to the table -- sport bras are one thing, but there's a lot of different bra types out there, and every one of them does something different (not to mention has a different effect on A cups than they do on G cups and everything in between.
Yeah... bra straps, panty lines would be nice. I might have to mess with dforce for that, I guess.
I'm thinking dforce would be the best way to show bra straps under clothing. Maybe use a dial to move the strap more from the body if it isn't showing up enough when simulated.
Some bright PA could make a HD bra and pantyline morph and an optional geoshell texture set to match
A hidden bra and panty as the collision item could also work