Patreon thoughts... opinions? Alternatives?
duckbomb
Posts: 585
Hello Everybody! This whole COVID thing hit me and my family a bit harder than expected (as I'm sure is also true for many of you), and so because of that I'm looking at ways to either rmonotize some of my art or offer something additional on a platform such as Patreon or Gum Road... does anybody here have any experiences with any platforms such as these that they would like to share with the class? I'lll go first...
My gut opinion was origionally that I was getting a little tired of seeing all of the patreon "teaser" images all over the place, and so I think that if I were to go this route I'd advertise in a different way, such as simply mentioning that this option is availble at the bottom of full pieces that I will continue to post where I post them. I have no basis for fact, however, so I'm simply going off my own feeling of this whole thing... I'm actually rather nervious to jump in, but I'm afraid I'm getting to a point where I have no option.
Additionally, I could always jsut create and sell full comics, instead of a subscription kind of model. I suppose this would offer more flexibility with when I deliver, but it could also be much less reliable in terms of income.
I'm not expecting that a ton of people even really notice if I go either of these two routes, but in the interest of simply doing it the best I can, I wanted to reach out to ya'll wonderful people for some opinions.
Does anybody use Patreon? Would you reccomend it?
EDIT - I just wanted to edit because I think I wasn't super clear about my actual question... I'm just curious if anybody out there hosts their own Patreon, or on any other site, and what their thoughts were... I do appreciate feedback with regards to how I can build up my following and make my endeavor a success, but it's not the primary point that I wanted to ask. I don't expect anybody to do my work for me LOL, I'm just trying to figure out which basket to put my eggs in :). Thanks you wonderful people!
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I see art occasionally showing links, but I haven't yet looked.
I do go to Deviant Art, but have never purchased.
So much for my plans to get rich on Patreon with centaur porn.
Ok, thank you! That's helpful! Yeah, I knew that they've had a bit of a clamp down recently on adult-themed stuff... I suppose that bears consideration. I don't think I'd be affected by that, but when platforms do that they sometimes swing a bit wide with that banhammer and it can have a negative effect on the community, which, in turn, would obviously have a negative effect on all of the creators.
For those of you who use it, is it one of your preferred ways to support creators, or is there a different platform you wished they would use, instead?
My Patreon perspective relates to YouTube videos. I made my own YouTube videos for a few years, and gathered a small following. I mingled with some minor YouTube celebrities, and liked them. Then many "celebrities" abandoned the free YouTube videos, in favor of Patreon. I don't have a lot of money to spend, and prefer to get value for my money. I never saw much monetary value in any of the YouTube celebrities that I followed at the time.
I've never purchased someone else's art, unless you count a few posters during my younger years. Sometimes I manage to find the energy to make my own art. But I'd never think any of my stuff would be worth any amount of money. I'd settle for making a few people laugh.
Patreon is very clear that their definition of pornography only involves real people. Digital art does not fall into that category, and thus is allowed on their platform.
While still not a user myself i have been paying some attention to the subject for some time (more in a adult visual novels/games than comics tho). Specially those that are more succesful. This is still just an opinion.
One of the first things to consider is your audience. Thay are the ones paying so you will have to balance what you offer to what they want or are willing to pay for. Look more closely in the communities of consumers of your particular product. You Speed/Quality to create content will need to consedered also.
Another very important thing to consider is what else besides your "main" product will you offer. I think this is key, after you get a few "customers/subscribers" your product is very likely to end for free somewere. So what else will you add that people won't get for free? There are a lot of things you can do here:
* Tiered news feed, access to polls, tiered discord channels to get access to you (yes, engaging with your consumers is valued a lot). And of course, special renders. What i saw some people do is offer a gallery to low tier subscriptors, but is the higher ones who say (inside your paramenters) what to render.
If you are good and have a decent "fan base" some people will still pay you just to support you, even if the products gets free somewere else or you take more time than normal one month to delive a "major" realeas. BUT, as long as the other stuff keeps flowing and always, patience has a limit. Some people will not have that patience. Still, you will probably need several months before this point.
While i understand you might be in a hurry to get extra income, do not rush to start. A bad start might not give you a chance to change direction and probably even "burn" you depending on what you did wrong. And don't think changing names works that easy, lots of people will spot your style even you use same daz base models as hundreads other. I think one of the worst things to do at the start are: fail to deliver a complete product and offer too little for free. People need to know what to expect from you before giving you their money, and since you say comics this goes beyond a couple renders. If you customize a lot the models, you probably want people to fall in love with them, let them do that before asking for money. If you do not customize them much you will need other things to make people notice you, like good writing; so let them experience your story telling, not a teaser that is not even a chapter on itself.
My suggestion would be, have a comic/chapter that is not too short (This will also show you how much time it takes you do a product). Can be part of a main story but needs to offer something concrete on its own. Also have a "teaser" for the next one. Give that for free the moment you are close to at least finish the second product. And during your first months try to mantain the publication speed level. Do not lower quality, once people like you more will probably be more willing to wait for longer/better quality comics even if it takes you more time but lowering quality to meet a deadline will become a problem if it repeats.
There are indeed several of adult theme game/comic/vn artists in patreon. Lots do pretty well. But also some are leaving or staring to use other platforms as a complement because there are a couple subjects (that i will not mention directly just in case) that patreon started to censor/ban a couple years ago. I personally agree with one of those bans; with the other, beside not being a fan of it myself, i simply don't agree and even find it hypocrite. In case anyone wonders: As in HBO(and grrm) with GoT was very explisit showing it and is probably at "fault" for it becoming more "mainstream" in last years, but somehow is not allowed for indie artists to do the same. Subscribestar is the alternative some creators found, but it does not allow Paypal (who many consider the actual content censor, patreon just stoped arguing with them).
So how prolific are you and what is unique about your art that adds value over and above some portfolio on Deviant/Artstation etc. that they can follow for free??.
I ask because I am subscribed to few youtube Blender Tutorial channels as well as a Marvel Comics Fandom Channel.
I dont support them on patreon though.
The Marvel Comics guy uploads one highly polished new video about some deep nerd examination of Marvel lore/Characters, releases, every 24 hours!!.
The Blender guys post at least one video per week and offer Blender scene files and other blender content( shaders etc) to the patreon supporters only.
Think of it this way. Patreon supporters ( strangers ,not Auntie &cousin Bob), will expect something new quite regularly just as Netflix subscribers will expect a variety regular programming Daily /weekly.
Money is getting tighter and LOTS of people are looking to Patreon now. Give it a shot, by all means, but keep your expectations in check.
OVER 70,000 NEW CREATORS HAVE SIGNED UP TO PATREON SINCE MID-MARCH
I use Gumroad for selling software, even with the free account they only charge a small fee for each sale. Works fine in general and their support is great and fast too. And they charge VAT automatically where appropriate (I'm obliged to do that by our tax authorities, and everyone probably will be soon), I had a hard time finding anyone who does that without their service being expensive. Weekly payouts to your PayPal account (you need to do a certain amount of sales though before they start paying out). You can sell directly from their site or set up your own website with your products and just create links to Gumroad's checkout form. Here's a list of their restrictions: https://gumroad.com/terms/prohibited
Hello everybody! Thank you SO MUCH for your thoughtful responses, it seems there are a lot of experiences out there with it! @Wolfwood, thank you for your well explained "business plan", there are some really great nuggets in there I hadn't fully considered!
It's possible I didn't explain my origional question super well, though, so I'm still wondering if there are any other experiences, similar to what @Taoz mentiond regarding Gumroad (Thank you, also, by the way, I hadn't fully considered Gumroad although I created a username over there. I'm thinking if I go the route of offering comics, this is a good option, and your comments now support that!)... I didn't want the conversation to be how I make money or whether or not I even would, or how to go about building up that fanbase, but rather if those of you who host a Patreon had first-hand information on how you felt the site was? For example, is it easy to maintain notifications? Are you able to post in various formats? Do you have control over whether or not you wanted to offer specials or discounts?
I DO know that these questions are answered in their own FAQ, but I'm curious to see if people's first-hand opinions contradict what it says or supports it.
And @Sevrin, you're right, my hopes are super low LOL. Honestly, I've been doing this for a while, I have a couple thousand "watchers" on DA, and I'm just curious to see if any of them follow me over or if this isn't a viable method of recouping at least my costs in 3D. If not, I'll try something else, but I thought I'd give it a shot at least! THANK YOU for the reality check, though, I also think that is a key component to making it in the long run when looking at endeavours like this... :)
TBH Patreon does add some work to what you do. I started about 5 years ago and the learning curve was a bit steep at the time, it may (SHOULD) have gotten better in the meantime. Maintaining a Patreon is extra work because you do have to provide extra incentives.
For example, is it easy to maintain notifications?
It's basically like writing a post, uploading the content into the post, and deciding which tier (minimum amount of pledge) gets to see it. It's pretty easy.
Are you able to post in various formats?
Although you are limited to the style of Patreon itself, you can upload images, files, etc. I have found no limit to the size of files yet, or the types of files you can upload. However, if you want to post multiple images in a single post, it's best to give people a zip/cbr to download because the multiple image viewer can be a little wonky.
Do you have control over whether or not you wanted to offer specials or discounts?
Unfortunately once you have initially decided on your rewards and costs for those rewards it's really hard to change them. You cannot offer specials or discounts to Patreon pledges without changing things for everybody. There are ways to simulate it -- for example, giving higher tier rewards to a lower tier for a week or something like that but you cannot give specials or discounts to individual people. Everyone in a specific tier gets charged the same.
@claycomix Thank you for this, it was exactly what I was looking for... I used to use my journal in DeviantArt to post up multiple pics in one (like a comic style journal), but the new Eclipse format messes that up, so it's good to know I'll have to find a new system for Patreon, as well... Also, about the special offers and such... that's something I'll have to put some thought into.
I really appreciate it!
I hope it's just a matter of time before you can group images in a single post on DA like you can on ArtStation, rather than have to post everything separately, or else make separate galleries. Everyone's getting into the "story" thing now, so maybe DA will catch up now that they've done the Eclipse thing.
I like patreon. I support several artists there. I don't think I would pay for renders though personally- I can make them. But I would pay for items like poses, clothing etc.
To add, I use Kindle comic creator to format my comics to upload to Amazon. It outputs a .mobi file which I can upload to patreon. I've also recently taken to creating PDF versions if patrons want to read on other apps or devices. There are 3d model creators who use Patreon to share their models, so you can post and share any kind of file you'd probably want to share. And as others have already said, Patreon has one of the loosest policies when it comes to adult content. As long as you're not using photographs of real people, Patreon doesn't care if your project contains explicit scenes.
And while I wouldn't recommend trying to flout Amazon's TOS, I have had comics go live in Kindele Select before I was able to get back on Patreon to delete them. My last project was up for about 2-3 weeks on Patreon after it went live on Amazon. I think when Amazon's bots scour the internet looking for books that are supposed to be exclusive, I don't think they find Patreon.
And one thing to think about no matter what kind of art you plan to post: your patrons expect value. Patreon isn't a go-fund-me. You're not using Patreon to collect donations. You're charging for whatever service you're promising, and patrons expect value. You should only proceed if you can deliver content regularly ecery month.
As far as promotions, I haven't seen a way to offer specials or discounts on the pledge, However, you can suspend payments for a month. Generally, this there if you need to take a month or two off, or otherwise don't think you can deliver your monthly committment on a particular month, but I did use this to give my patrons a free month as a christmas gift - anyone who was subscribed at the end of December didn't pay for Janurary. I also suspended the April payment because I wasn't sure how all the lockdowns were going to affect my page...which was also a nice gift to anyone who might have had hurting wallets because of the economy. It is all or nothing, though. You can't target individual patrons for that free month (though I suppose you could do it by refunding their payment.).
I post my VN's through Patreon. The site is very creator friendly.
One of the big keys to Patreon is getting people interested in what you do. That measn giving away a lot of your work. There really is no way around that. I know other artists who simply could not get past that and never got a following and gave up.
To go along with that you need to get your work in front of people who want it. That means getting involved in online communities and social platforms where your potential fans will be. I spend a fair bit of my "work" time on the VN's doing promotion on forums etc.
Also don't try to get rich off your patrons. I've seen creators with tiers which were just too high. No one is likely to subscribe to someone they have no idea about at $20/month. I've had a single tier, $5/mpnth, since I started and I make enough to make a small profit when my expenses are taken into account which is nice for what is essentiall a hobby.
In my opinion, there isnt a market for Patreon art unless you are making adult stuff or if you have a big following elsewhere (e.g., in some other non-traditional media platform like youtube). Cultivating the following that will bring people to your Patreon and motivate them to sign up is the big challenge.
Yeah, it's the "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free" situation. Many VN creators will distribute their work for free a month or two after patrons have had access. So you're really paying for early access. You're also paying to interact with people making stuff you enjoy, so there's that, too.
Someone in the adult industry suggested posting at, uh, StayathomeHub, but I'm not sure what kind of interested there is on sites like that for static images.
I post my VN publicly after a month. Patrons do pay for early access plus my WiP posts.
Your work will be posted publicly somewhere as soon as you release it. There are entire sites dedicated to distributing other people's VN's.
People are getting pretty comfortable with supporting creators even when they could get the content for free.
There is also Subscribestar.
https://www.subscribestar.com/
You were asking about alternatives. Subscribestar is another option for people that may end up running afoul of Patreon's guidelines. Subscribestar does have a separate adult section for such things, but we don't discuss such things around here, this being a 'G' rated forum and all...
Wow, I woke up to a bunch of new input, thanks! @Kenshaw, that's really good information regarding Patreon and your experiences... I think you're exactly right about promoting yourself a LOT of the time... I have a feeling this is going to be true with whichever platform I end up on, and I also think it's going to be one of my biggest challenges considering how introverted I am LOL.
@jjmainor I hadn't even THOUGHT about if I could suspend charging for a month or two if needed, but that's critical information. I'm glad they accomodate in this kind of instance, thank you for sharing that. It puts my mind at ease because there's always eventually something that pops up that pulls you away. Also, I didn't know there was any kind of exclusivity agreement in place when you use the Amazon marketplace, so I'll have to dig into that...
And I've seen the subscribestar logo around DeviantArt, but I never really looked into that... I'll look into that now! I don't know if I even have to be worried about adult policies and such, I tend to walk a fine line. In all honesty, if what I'm putting out crosses that line too far I'd honestly welcome the little tug back to the other side...
This has been such good food for thought, all of the posts, I'm excited to start building up a strategy. I also think what I'll do is build up a small cataglogue to populate in the Patreon, or Subscribestar/Gumroad if I happen to also go that way instead, so that there's content for day 1 people, as many of you correctly pointed out this is not charity or go fund me. It's important to have content there!