Using Daz Models for Videogames - is it worth it?
sjaammons
Posts: 185
Disclaimer: I've done what research I can, so I know that if I were to use Daz figures I'd need to pay a $50 license for every single model, morph, hair, clothing, or prop I use in the game.
I'm a bit of a newbie to game development and going through tutorials atm. I'm thinking down the line when I want to experiment with NPCs or a third person player character.
I have zero background with 3D modeling and little time or interest to learn on top of Game Development, so looking for any reasonable shortcuts to aspects of game dev I can, specifically character models.
I have a lot of assets from Daz 3D I've used for comic reference, and wondering if paying $500+ in Licenses for what models I have is worth it compared to hiring out somebody to make models for me.
I'm going to start small, use stuff like Make Human and all that, but if I ever get to the point I want to make a game with more unique looking models, I'm wondering if using Daz as a shortcut is worth the $$$ compared to hiring a freelancer (as I have no time to learn the 3D modeling aspect myself).
Appreciate any advice. I've tried to look up games that have used Daz models but almost exclusively just find goofy porn visual novels, so any *actual* 3D games that have used Daz models to look at would be great.
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ok here my tough:
first you must choose what "game engine you gonna use" if you gonna crate yourself one which based on what you told probably is the "less likely" to do, then we go to option 2 choose a already existing game engine to make your games:
currently we have 3 more "popular" and less costs, which are:
unreal engine - you can make your game "without have to pay anything to use the engine "until the game is ready to sell, then you must pay each 3 months(or quarter) 5% or 10% of all your gains with the game, like if you gained 100 dollars, then 5 or 10 dollar you have to pay to epic each 3 months(just a exemple), this "payment can be avoided if you manage to release your game in the epic game store, then you only need to pay the 12% of the store but any other store you have to pay the "store +plus epic 5 or 10% value for exemple if you place your game in steam, you have to pay a initial feel of 100 buckets to have the game accept, then each 3 months(or each month, don't recall now), you have to pay 30% of all the gains to steam then 5 ro 10 more to epic, which means around 35 to 40% of total gains, this will be diferent for each store.
unity - have 2 ways one which is each month you have to pay i think is 15% or something like that of your total gain and the other way is paying a annual payment, which i don't recall now which make you free to have to pay anything else, then you must choose what you feel is better for you.
GODOT - is totally free, even royalts, all the ask is you to "donate" to the work pretty much like blender.
well for "daz characters" i do feel which unreal is the best option because for "realism, pc and AAA quality games, unreal is the top dog, while for mobile, 2D and less high ending machines or modest games unity is the best, godot could be the "middle ground" or the i don't want to expend any money and want to save much money as i can.
i'm using daz character, well when comes to "cost, what i love in daz compared with others places like "iclone" without any effort is the "price" even "interactive licenses time to time get some discounts, last "end of year" interactive licenses get a 70% discount, then what is matter is more "time" just wait for a proper time where the licenses are getting a discount like 50 or 70% and go for it, also again price is the strongest point of daz compared with others places, maybe unreal market unity market you can find more "deals" with modular characters.
About the license it's only required to buy the license when you are about to "release the game" if you already have tons of models and morphs and others stuffs you can already pretty much start to work now and when ou are nearly close to "release the game to sell" then buy all the licenses or as i told wait for "good sales" like end years sales to get the best discounts possible.
hmm instead of makehuman i would advise you to use adobe fuse cc, it's also free and it allow you to also create characters and it's library is much better for outfits and morphs.
what make for me daz one of the best option is which currently is the only one which allow you to export "morph targets with the character which is very important if you want "allow character customization".
now some important notes, the big issue with "daz characters" is which you must be carefull while wanting to use "hairs or cloths" because many daz hairs and cloths are strong high poly ( i means hairs going from 100 to almost 1 million vertices or polygons which is insane for game), almost goes the same for outfits some artists in daz really love "high detailed stuffs" like even the small piece of the cloth will be "high poly" then becarefull when looking for outifts, because you can easy get stufh with outfits around 100k+ polygons, which while maybe 100k could be be "big like that" you must remember which you also have hairs and the cahracter naked body and weapons and props and scenes and imagine a full let's say 1 million polygons character alone because of the outfit and the "hair alones" goes high it would make the game have only the character and nothing more in game because no game could run this insane stuff unless it's pre-rendered pictures, then while daz character base is not really that heavy in poly count, you must pay attention to the "extras" specially the ones "more detailed and cools" because normally that ones are the most omg polycount, for exemple those days i found out which a "bikini armor" with some details here and there was almost 300k polygon, again a "bikini armor" with just few pieces here and there, like a neck and some armsbands, then becarefull.
you can find a lot of tutorials in youtube with all the game engines or you can go to udemy,com site and buy some "class about unreal or unit or godot or other engine you want to use,
also you can find some tips here on this forum:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/405506/fully-functional-daz3d-characters-in-unreal-engine#latest
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/371856/a-using-daz-content-in-ue4-thread#latest
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/134926/adding-dual-quaternion-support-to-unrealengine4-images-inside#latest
also you can find some others random it's not easy but still, also i can later provide some "youtube channels which deal with unreal engine tutorials if you want by pm or somethig like that.
well it's just a "basic" stuff i've added here maybe i can give some more extra info but this is the "most basic stuff.
in the end what is matter is how much you are willing to afford to make the game and how much knowledge you have and how much "free time you have expend in the game dev, specially if you are going to work alone then you must really be ready.
well to give a proper answer to your question i would say "yes" as long you know what you are doing and not just add stuffs just because they "look cool or awesome" and have in mind which 3d game is different from 3d render, because while the early you need to be carefull with polycount the later no and you can get really bad stuffs to work if you wor only with daz stuffs.
about game the one which i remember so far which use daz models or at last they really look a lot like some "daz characters" could be this one
https://store.steampowered.com/app/611790/House_Party/
i also remember seeying 2 "horror" games with daz characters but don't recall names, they are really few because the lack of "game content" once daz is more "heavy worked around rendering than "game dev", then most of props, hairs and many of outifits are not "game friendly (too high poly count), making a little complicated to use daz for this, you must really learn who's daz artist is the most 'game friendly (making low poly or at last really under the 100k rule) to buy stuffs.
I'd recommend that you create a game you actually like playing, sincerely, using the DAZ Assets you want, and if you are really satisfied, sincerely, before publishing buy all the DAZ Assets used in the game, if & only if you can easily afford it because you know, South Park doesn't actually do sophisticated animation, modeling, or even script writing; so success is whaaaaatever, but you should have fun regardless.
Great advices - thanks for posting them.
Maybe look at the game engines on Steam. There's a ton of game-making apps.
My first suggestion would be to start small and learn how to MOD a game.
Get one of those engines and make a level or two, play with their assets first.
The popular game-making-software already has TONS or resources and assets and tons of tutorials.
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In other words, do what everyone else is already doing instead of trying to integrate two (almost unrelated) paths into one.
In more words, there is a huge amount of low-poly (game-in-mind-designed) props for those gaming communities....
Even rigged figures.
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As suggested earlier, mod a game you already like playing and know well.
3D engines and full-on 3-D models are not the only way to use Daz for game creation. That's probably the most direct, brute-force way to conceptualize Daz assets into a game. It's not one that I'd choose to start with.
Visual novels, RPG Maker assets? Just render something, put the images into a game. That's probably the most powerful use for Daz. Render art, and use the art in a game. No 3D modeling required, much more limited set of licensing concerns (although all things legal have a non-zero set of concerns to think through).
RPGMaker is of course available through places like Steam. So is their VN Maker.
You can also use free platforms like Ren'py or Twine for VNs/interactive fiction.
Worth pointing out that you cannot use DAZ assets to mod a game, even with the interactive license. The license is for original game creation only.
Yeah that comment wasn't directed at using Daz assets, it was more about getting your feet wet in game development by modding games that already exist before making your own.
well about going mod first, to be fair today you have really, really a lot of free tutorials in youtube, for almost all the top game engines and some of then like unreal are made to be "really easy to work with the blueprint system", the engine already come with a lot of things pre-coded making all you need is "to connect things" and know how to connext, and if you really need a very complex tutorial you can buy some online class like in udemy.com for a really cheap price, but i think youtube tuorials are more than enough for that, many, really many of the stuff i've learned aside the basic class lessons i get from my school, was from youtube, and it been helping me a lot, my only issue is really "being alone" make things really hard and the worst i'm a bit of perfeccionist or type of stubborn which put something on head i will full focus on it before goes to something else, then currently i'm stuck in learn how to make a "character creaton system like the sims 4 or black desert, where you can customize morphs and type of skins and cloths all that crap and it's not really being easy to learn since in this case i saw many different ways to do and so far none of then was really "complete as i wanted" all of then aways skip or miss one step which i would need and since each one follow a "different way" make a little complicalted try to merge steps from each other, then only after i can get over it which i will gonna go to my next step, which will be use the character in game, also my other big issue really gonna be the "level design" because i'm really terrible at it while i found some tutorials and in theory it's not "hard" the ammount of "work" and patience need here is not the one i'm the type of person to have, i'm really thinking in hiring or find someone to do that for me.
but i as told i really feel daz characters are very good for game dev, they are in the right amount of polygons to look pretty good unless you do a really big close-up and only in places like shoulds which you gonna notice any "sharpe", otherwise they are very good, the only issue for daz is really the extras, outfit, hair and others which as i told based on the "daz artists" can be really impossible to use in many cases but if you manage to find the "right ones then you are fine.
Making game in unreal is so easy and simple which in the worst case you can make a very basic game in unreal with health bars enemies and a full level aslong its not too big, in few hours in worst case in one day ofcourse if you had all the assets needed, ofcourse i'm talking about "prototype game" or let's say a "alpha of alpha, the bluprint structure is very dinamic and fast making really easy to set all things fast as long they are "basic".
Both UE4 & Unity have beginner game frameworks with assets included. and when you're satisfied with doing & testing the tutorials using those comes the hard parts so try these:
a) create a unique environment that uses DAZ 3D set assets and alter the game framework to use those daz assets (the tutorials should teach how).
b) then create the look you're after using DAZ 3D character assets (if possible - morphs or no morphs what you want is liable to be particular to you),
now the really hard part
c) the game play will be identical to everyone else's using that identical game framework so modify the game framework to make your game unique playwise; BUT you don't have to do that - say if you comeup with a really appealing set and characters that you think will attract game players. Don't dismiss that possibility out of hand as it's done all the time in story telling, music, games, and other entertainment. And look at the DAZ 3D Store it's self if you think you must be 100% unique, you needn't be.
There are 'visual state machine' game frameworks you can buy to help if you can't write program code. Also (free) state machines included with UE4 & Unity make up a big part of creating games and animating characters according to their state in UE4 & Unity. You'll need to do their provided tutorials to learn the ropes of programming and designing in these game engines as the scope is way to big to cover in a paragraph. Even experienced programmers and game artists have to do that, after all you can't use features they've made available for you to design a game if you don't do their tutorials and read their feature sets because you won't learn they are available. Don't get bogged down trying to learn if all though. Decide what sort of game you want to make and target the problem subset of tutorials and game design and features documentation of the game engine you choose to use.
Difficult to answer without knowing what the figure will be used for. Are you making animated cutscenes, or would you be using the Daz stuff for a player character or NPC that needs to be animated within the game engine?
LOL House Party was 3D using DAZ figures
This is a sensible way to do it, good suggestions.
If you are planning to use the Unity 3D Game engine for example, it makes the most sense to get game assets for the Unity Asset store. They are rigged for the engine, textured for the engine, but most importantly optimized for the engine.
i disagree on that.
not really if we go for that "logic" then we can't create ourselfs our own "assets" because we "don't know" what are the requeriments to create the game engine assets" and in many times that "game engine assets make in the store would not match our tastes or what we are looking for me and even if we know what are the requeriments it's can "limite what we can do, for exemple unreal engine have his own "epic skeleton" setup which many unreal market store sellers use as "base for they characters" but not of then use it, specially if you gonna make "non human" characters and about "texture" it's not "true, at last for unreal, not all textures made in the store "follow a exactly perfect pattern" even unreal engine made texture for characters and others stuffs don't have a pattern to call "optmized", you can find many ways to make "assets" in your own way and still be "optmized" they only have some "recomendations", but are not a "obligatory rule otherwise you would never use stuffs like cc fuse, or others stuffs like vroid or makehuman to create "game characters" because they "dont follow unreal "rules", or are "optmized for it", what make it be "optmized will be your "work inside unreal specially the textures, everything about texture can be "optmized inside unreal" this is why normally the "teachers" (at last in my school) told me to when make a game or go for 2k or 4k textures because if it proof to be too demanding to have "all the times" inside unreal you have options to "reduce it", the only real issue "for game" would be really high poly stuffs like characters with 500k or 1 million polygons which still impossible for "game to handle" while for "animation or visual architec it could be fine, what is matter is your own knowledge about "how to work in the stuffs".
Another problem with "optmized" in the stores/market is "for what"???? many characters and assets in the store are optmized let's say for "mobiles" others for low ending machines and only a bunch of then are optmized for AAA game quality, that is one of the things which make "optimized" a little complicated" because they peoples making the stuffs in the game engine store/market somehow follow a some sort of same patern which many PA in DAZ follow, they make they stuffs more like optmized for "mobile" or low ending stuffs, like "really low poly characters and stuffs, which while for "mobile and for low ending stuffs are fine if you are looking for something more "high ending you will ending find few of then and not all of then will be on "your taste" or what you was "looking for".
while here in daz "high poly is more common in those stores "really low pol"y (mobile level) are the most common, because of that logic of try to achiev the most sales possible including most plataform possible.
I modelled a silly squidman in Zbrush and uploading it to Mixamo and using Autorigger with the Unreal Engine export pretty much matched the Humanoid rig of the third person mannequin out of the box, so that would likely be my own future workflow.
you could model lowpoly people in Blender too and texture them with photographs, I have seen some cool tutorials.
First of all, 99% of Daz3D products are not optimized for games. You will understand this when you learn more about game production Your game will be "too heavy" or "too slow". It's better to use assets from Unity or UE stores. Or you can optimize Daz3d' products for games. For example, with Decimator for DAZ Studio.
To make custom 3d model (like anything else) is more expensive than buy similar product in store. It's strange that you don't know this.
to pay someone certainly is
depending on the software used modeling your own can be free
the OP doesn't want to model
buying DAZ figure licenses not a cheap option either but if you do looking at what you buy and the possibilities of different skins is going to be a better choice.
the morphing fantasy dress being one such choice many textures are available for but of course those need licensing too.
creating your own textures will certainly pay and how games do it
Nothing is free in this World. Custom work never cheap in this World. How much 1 hour of 3d artist's work costs? How much hours needed to create character for game with clothing, footwear and hair? Calculate this... no comments.
Characters for games costs thousands dollars, sometimes tens of thousands. If only tou are not from India. Incredible India... ;)
well in my case it's the cost of Zbrush and Carrara and my time
ok
i gonna disagree on that about 99%, some "pa artits and some products are a lot "game friendly, ofcourse again while indeed most of the products are really not good you can find a lot of "game friendly" if you know were to look for and you can "optmize it even without "decimator all you need is use the "geometry editor and know how to "deleted unwanted "faces", just buy from the right vendos and right stuffs and you have a very friendly game engine character.
the big issue in daz is which the products don't come with a proper poly count displayed in the product info and another big issue is the "export" workflow is which really horrible when comes to export textures(it only export base color and no other "map like normal or displacement and others) but for export the base character and morphs is perfect and you can even make your own "modular characters using daz export if you know how to work with daz geometry editor.
While i agree daz is really not "game dev" full friendly it do have some good base for it.
here a exemple of a "good character made in daz perfect usable in game:
i've already tested it in unreal and worked perfect.
well the simple answer is obviously yes it is cheaper to buy DAZ licenses than to pay someone else to create you bespoke models.
is it cheaper to buy DAZ licenses and models than other options
not always depending on what you buy or are willing to do yourself
yeah that is another thing i love over daz is they "really cheap prices" even the licenses time to time get some discount like 30, 40, 50 or even 70% discount without count the "regular prices discount sales, it easy make daz much, really much more cheaper than many high or middle quality stuffs in unity or unreal stores.
Sometimes i really can't understand that "bad stigma" daz got about "game" is more like some peoples or do hate the ideal or do fear or never tried or tried in the wrong moment, like the age of victoria 4 and g1 and g2 where the d3 game was still in the "toddler" and kid phase" and really you could not work with "proper realistic characters", but with the current ps4 and incoming ps5 age and the today pcs, you can easy use g3 or g8 character almost without any issue as long you know what you are working with.
Mostly because the DAZ models are good and usuable in games mostly. The trash talkers are the same ones that trash people buying game frameworks and assets in the Unity / UE4 asset stores. You really needn't pay them any mind.
Call any game for example. I want to play it.
You mean that uses DAZ 3D assets that's been published? There are many. I've not personally checked specifically for a while (I don't want to play follow the leader by looking at what's being made in the game stores sorry) but in the Google Play store (or maybe it was the Amazon Store) there was/is a game that for example used 3DU's Toon Santa and the Infinite Runner framework created by opsive that the game developer bought in the Unity Asset Store. Opsive have since stopped selling their Infinite Runner Framework in the Unity Asset Store. 3DU still sells their Toon Santa. Is the game I saw still for sale? I don't know but if you search for Infinite Runner and Christmas and Santa and personally go through the results yourself, you should find it if the game author hasn't removed it. It won't be too hard to recognize as 3DU's Toon Santa is distictive in appearance.
I've used 3D assets from DAZ 3D in games myself that I've not published too. Also, I've used higher polygon Poser / Smith Micro assets that I have published to Google Play and since withdrawn. Using the same opsive Infinite Runner framework that used to be sold in the Unity Asset Store by the way. Yes, I have bought and have licenses for all of those things and much, much more too.
Besides those examples, a little reading of the DAZ forums by yourself will show you that DAZ forum activities prove there are people buying DAZ 3D Interactive licenses and publishing games with them. That and the fact that DAZ still sells interactive licenses and changed their licensing model to a per model/per bundle purchase of an interactive license rather than the old blanket DAZ Originals or PA product interactive licenses that they used to sell. Someone even created a thread either yesterday or today asking if it was illegal for a person to have published a game on Steam using DAZ 3D assets, which, no it's not illegal to do so if you have licensed everything used in it to dot your i's and cross your t's.
Looks like, we are playing different games. Call me when any Open World game with Daz Characters will be released. With Millawa 8, for example.
Well I worked on videogames companies and for sure Daz models are not being used for games for some reasons:
Videogame Companies have excellent modellers who create low poly models and reduced textures for optimal performance in real time.
Just for example look for Mortal Kombat, you can think is Daz figures but nope, well that is the top figures on videogames, and no, Cyberpunk uses LQ assets with heavy shadering.
What yes there exists games using Daz assets?, YES, they are, but are limited and probably indie companies doing that due to reduced team of collaborators, and probably not paying licences, look for some fight games on android...voila. and yes there are sex japanese games using daz assets but there are render images with multiple poses like a date simulator.
and due to DS terms changing constantly, was $50 USD or $100 a license for asset and for any one of each!, now costs around $5 USD, but they can denegate license or terminate license in any time and that could cause lawsuits in the future for any game in progress, remember, games are not created in one year, and you can not think "what if in 3 years DS change license terms or blablablabla" is nono for any serious game company.
Knowing that once human labor becomes the most expensive part of that game life cycle and that the upcoming UE5 is said to handle millions of polygons I don't really think those game houses will really be not using DAZ assets because of high polygon counts & large textures but because of high licensing costs and it's invariable cheaper to have character templates in house than it is to go shopping at 3rd party sites for new source models that you're going to have to customize heavily for your characters anyway. Some of those game houses are funding open source Blender to save even more on labor costs.