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Fiddling with Iray skin settings...

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  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    the octane render which @Rashad Carter posted.. shows what is missed in all current models....The fact that translucency color depends on the Angle of view! this gots totally lost in jaq's model...(1, 1, 1)

    jcades and my setups - do this "halfway" right.....  i need to see the "blue" coming from sss and red contoures on hard nose shadows,  - then i am happy and can start with high res textures laugh

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • RafmerRafmer Posts: 564

    Ok, here is the same scene again; this time just using the default HDR for lightning, only rotated 70º.

    prueba3.png
    1080 x 1080 - 1M
  • jag11jag11 Posts: 885

    Thanks.

    pearbear said:

    Those look really, really good under that soft lighting. Are the settings essentially the same as your Scott 6 settings from several pages ago? I've been playing with those Scott 6 settings you posted, and liking the results.

    Yep, they are essentially the same,  except for minor glossiness lowering down sometimes, but once set, I'm just changing lighting.

    pearbear said:

    I'd be curious to see how your Cailin material above looks with harsh, hard shadows like you might get by lighting with just one small spotlight.

    Also, how are those settings looking with rim/edge lighting? In my skin experiments, I've felt the need to use an adjusted topcoat for my specular settings to get rim lighting to behave naturally like skin. I haven't tested it rigorously, but it feels like the fresnel effect of topcoat set to "fresnel" looks more like skin than the base glossy settings do. I could be totally mistaken about that though - has anyone made comparisons or have knowledge of how base layer glossy works vs. top coat glossy in regards to fresnel and lighting angle?

    Both images are one spotlight at 10,000 lumen. All images redered with default tone mapping.

    cailing harsh light.png
    500 x 650 - 544K
    cailing rim light.png
    500 x 650 - 239K
  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    because this texture is more pale and has lesser red amount then the ones before.... the translucency color is now yellow jaq...

    very good to see on your first frontal face render - > the shadow would never go to this yellowish color from the nose...   make a longer shadow somehwere in a hard sunlight HDMri and your settings would look very unnatural - would make me think my whitepoint is wrong in my camera smiley..

    Other then that - the shell simulates perfectly wath i can not get out of tmc and distance yet!

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015



    improved a lot.... highlight on the nose is now sharp!... it shows another problem! we must mask the nostril holes if they are not dark in your translucency map or you use a single color... i ran in the same issue.

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,034
    edited December 2015

    ...experimenting with albino skin textures.

     

     

    Kelly albino.png
    636 x 900 - 615K
    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    i did some tests with atmosphere and laser lights.... ONE of the limits which we have is that wen can not see scatterd light from outside of the volume...

    But i think this got solved or WILL be solved in the newest or next update?..where did i read that`? i dont remember..    that's what i need to eliminate the shell in jaq's model...

     

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • LostboysLostboys Posts: 18
    Rafmer said:

    Ok, here is the same scene again; this time just using the default HDR for lightning, only rotated 70º.

    Really good results there!Can you post some screenshots with your settings?

     

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310

    @ramfer Your spec and overall transulcency seem pretty good, but she does look a little bit like she's been snorting fireflies.

     

    Its hard to be positive without knowing what your settings are but my educated guess would be that if you lower the scattering measurement distance, that might help

  • RafmerRafmer Posts: 564
    Lostboys said:
    Rafmer said:

    Ok, here is the same scene again; this time just using the default HDR for lightning, only rotated 70º.

    Really good results there!Can you post some screenshots with your settings?

     

     

    j cade said:

    @ramfer Your spec and overall transulcency seem pretty good, but she does look a little bit like she's been snorting fireflies.

     

    Its hard to be positive without knowing what your settings are but my educated guess would be that if you lower the scattering measurement distance, that might help

    Here are the settings for the skin; only difference in lips is the top coat mode which I left to reflectivity.

    set.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 197K
  • Gr00vusGr00vus Posts: 372

    I think it looks very good. The translucence may be a little too strong (as I think @j cade was initimating) on the nose ridge. Not enough of a problem for me not to like the result. 

    Rafmer said:

    Ok, here is the same scene again; this time just using the default HDR for lightning, only rotated 70º.

     

  • pearbearpearbear Posts: 227

    Thanks for posting the follow up images, jag. I'm really enjoying the plethora of info and images you and others are contributing here.

    I've been working at skin material settings based on the V7 skin textures. This is using the V7 color textures, and making my own bump maps from them in Photoshop (using Photoshop's highpass filter). No glossy or spec maps, it's just the varying bump that is determining changes in apparent glossiness. (I slightly smoothed the nose on my custom bump map in Photoshop, and it results in the nose tip looking shinier in the render.) I'm getting a ton of inspiration from the different ideas and techniques here. Currently really unhappy with my eye settings, so they're closed. The first two images are lit with HDRIs, and the last is with two small 15,000 L spotlights.

     

     

     

     

  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910

    @pearbear

    welcome back...   I see overall and now also in your renders - a great improvment.. and a awakened "eye" for the details which must be correct if we aim for realism ..

    the quality of the renders here in this thread suddenly "exploded" since some days smiley

  • pearbearpearbear Posts: 227

    Thanks Andy, it's good to be back! smiley You all have been doing great stuff here, I love how much the thread has exploded recently.

    Thanks for keeping the skin rendering conversation alive here!

  • LostboysLostboys Posts: 18
    edited December 2015

    .

    Post edited by Lostboys on
  • LostboysLostboys Posts: 18
    edited December 2015
    Rafmer said:
    Lostboys said:
    Rafmer said:
    Ok, here is the same scene again; this time just using the default HDR for lightning, only rotated 70º.
    Lostboys said:
    Rafmer said:
    Lostboys said:

    Really good results there!Can you post some screenshots with your settings?

     

     

    j cade said:

    @ramfer Your spec and overall transulcency seem pretty good, but she does look a little bit like she's been snorting fireflies.

     

    Its hard to be positive without knowing what your settings are but my educated guess would be that if you lower the scattering measurement distance, that might help

    Here are the settings for the skin; only difference in lips is the top coat mode which I left to reflectivity.

    Thank you for sharing your settings.Just a little test render with different HDRI and some adjustment to the eyes.

     

     

     

     

    Vicky11.jpg
    1044 x 1080 - 528K
    Post edited by Lostboys on
  • RafmerRafmer Posts: 564
    Lostboys said:
     
    Lostboys said:

    Thank you for sharing your settings.Just a little test render with different HDRI and some adjustment to the eyes.

     

     

     

     

    Maybe I shouldn't be the one saying this, but she looks good! cheeky

    I didn't notice, since I was doing a closer image, but you may want to increase the roughness of the top coat in the rest of the body.

    Also, you can turn off the burn highlights per component in tone mapping settings for an instant warmer look.

  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    @Arnold C.
     

    *When using a light (or monochrome) "Translucency Color" in combination with a dark "Transmitted Color" (avoiding values of or going against "0.00" which we found out is something really Bad™), we will have another instrument of control over our Transmission at our hands with the "Transmitted Measurement Distance" (TMD) parameter. Raising or lowering it's value will have a clearly noticeable impact on the final color of the Transmission. (See screenshots SSS2 to SSS4 below, for presentational purposes the "Translucency Weight" is set to 1.0 to show the Transmission at it's full strength).*

    That's why the best we can do is using a albedo which includes  some SSS ..a as best as possible made face albedo includes ONLY frontlight backscattering.

    Melanin: Absorbation does NOT start after the light traveled trough the outer level of skin.....  it starts right the moment when a light beam enters the volume...That's why Base only is a "SCREEN" a projection plane for the final image.... the Screen controls only the Luminance! aka = grey..the SHARP details we want to see in our renders.

    Melanin AND every other colorinfo come from translucency and (scattered absorbation)....(or should come in a perfect simulation)

    2. The problem is that we can NOT split direct frontal sss  and translucency which affects light which shines trough ears and noses (and face contoures!)....    light penetrates skin way deeper as skin studies show! i can see light trough the bones of my pinky ! ....

    In Iray we can not simulate SKIN - we Simulate a FACE a 2 - 3 cm thick Layer.!....  strong light MUST affect the shadow color or the simulation is wrong.. 

    3. TMC is not the skincolor - the skincolor is in translucency and base ( base only if you use colors there)!... tmc is the ratio of R G and B - how much of each channel get absorbed on the distance the light travels in our face (volume)... it affects mainly which color under which angle of VIEW we see most - the color (startpoint translucenc color mixed with base (weight) on the surface volume (transmitted distance 0 ) ! By the nature of absorbation and the final skin colors - TMC is a color CLOSE to the final Skin... which controls what LIGHT projects on our final render.

    Setting up this correct is the challenge...with a limited scatter.

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • jag11jag11 Posts: 885

    I wanted to share with you this image of how translucent we are... for reference. See eyes, ears, nostrils.

    collage baby_edited.jpg
    2458 x 2242 - 537K
  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,888

    Yeah we are quite translucent! : )

  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    @jag11

    well - how translucent WE HAVE BEEN once cheeky

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910

     actually the differences in light penetration charts come as much from age as from ethnic.  we are not born with all the melanin. Some babies even change the eyeclors after some weeks because of that.

  • RafmerRafmer Posts: 564

    Playing with translucency color for a tanned look.

    prueba4.png
    1080 x 1080 - 1M
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    AndyGrimm said:

     actually the differences in light penetration charts come as much from age as from ethnic.  we are not born with all the melanin. Some babies even change the eyeclors after some weeks because of that.

    In addition, babies are much smaller, so, relatively, light penetrates further.

  • KurzonDaxKurzonDax Posts: 228
    Rafmer said:

    Playing with translucency color for a tanned look.

    That looks much better than the sprayed-on tan look that most of the main Genesis 3 characters seem to have.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,006

    You know what really chaps my hinie? Bump maps that have shadows baked into them.

     

    Really, guys?

     

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    timmins.william said:

    You know what really chaps my hinie? Bump maps that have shadows baked into them.

     

    Really, guys?

     

    Bump maps that have stuff like freckles really baked into them, and moles that are baked dark (so that they go down) instead of up. grrrr. Although in general most of the stuff sold at daz in the recent era is pretty good about this

     

    Since I dont like pointing out negative example, I'm going to specificallu say Cailin by Raia does a truly exelent job of showing what you should do: no baked frekles, or spec.

  • AndyGrimmAndyGrimm Posts: 910
    edited December 2015

    There must be a reason why we rarely see a close up with bump in the promos smiley... On the other side... A real special made skin for Iray (or any pbr) means 5 - 10 times more workhours because of the bump then old style daz skins do...    Would we be williing to pay 100 - 200USD for a model with real microstructure and high res displacment ? hmm

    Post edited by AndyGrimm on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,006
    edited December 2015

    I'm trying to turn the scales from Creature Creator into a rocky surface (because UV seams make it hard to just use generated textures), but am running into this issue.

    Mind you, I ADORE CC. Scales, fur, plus so many amazing morphs.

    Just, well, the scale bump maps have shadows. mutter

    (I again lament the lack of procedural shaders in Iray)

     

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    timmins.william said:

    I'm trying to turn the scales from Creature Creator into a rocky surface (because UV seams make it hard to just use generated textures), but am running into this issue.

    Mind you, I ADORE CC. Scales, fur, plus so many amazing morphs.

    Just, well, the scale bump maps have shadows. mutter

    (I again lament the lack of procedural shaders in Iray)

     

    I'm sure more fully procedural stuff will come, but Iray in the shader mixer has one hell of a learning curve (And this is speaking as someone who was already somewhat competent in shader mixer)

     

    And I think I mentioned it to you before but hae you tried using the decal node? it utilizes a form of projection mapping, so you don't have to worry about seams

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