Is it possible to achieve such levels of realisticity simply with Daz Genesis 8 figure?

Sven Dullah

Ok, forget games, not a gamer anyway. So is IRay to blame for the low poly count and heavy reliance on subdividing? DS/IRay and today's graphic cards/processors can't handle models with a poly count 50 times less than the average game character? Now you're gonna say it's not the geometry, it's the textures. And I'll reply so why not increase poly count then? 

The answer, I assume lies in their sales strategy...which is why we probably won't see increased realism with the next gen?

Havos

Sven Dullah said:

Ok, forget games, not a gamer anyway. So is IRay to blame for the low poly count and heavy reliance on subdividing? DS/IRay and today's graphic cards/processors can't handle models with a poly count 50 times less than the average game character? Now you're gonna say it's not the geometry, it's the textures. And I'll reply so why not increase poly count then? 

The answer, I assume lies in their sales strategy...which is why we probably won't see increased realism with the next gen?

Genesis low poly count has a number of reasons, not just down to game engine compatibility, though I suspect that is one of them. I am sure Iray is not to blame, the various Genesis models had been fairly low poly for a long time before Iray was incorporated into DS.

I suspect a major reason for the low poly count is that such figures are easier for base modelling, and also for making jcms and other corrections for clothing.

In reality once you put a hair on a Genesis figure, the 16K polys of the base model, even if subdivided once or twice, pales into insignificance compared to the polys on the hair. Many hair models, even non-dForce ones, are a million polys or more.

Sven Dullah

Havos said:

Sven Dullah said:

Ok, forget games, not a gamer anyway. So is IRay to blame for the low poly count and heavy reliance on subdividing? DS/IRay and today's graphic cards/processors can't handle models with a poly count 50 times less than the average game character? Now you're gonna say it's not the geometry, it's the textures. And I'll reply so why not increase poly count then? 

The answer, I assume lies in their sales strategy...which is why we probably won't see increased realism with the next gen?

Genesis low poly count has a number of reasons, not just down to game engine compatibility, though I suspect that is one of them. I am sure Iray is not to blame, the various Genesis models had been fairly low poly for a long time before Iray was incorporated into DS.

I suspect a major reason for the low poly count is that such figures are easier for base modelling, and also for making jcms and other corrections for clothing.

In reality once you put a hair on a Genesis figure, the 16K polys of the base model, even if subdivided once or twice, pales into insignificance compared to the polys on the hair. Many hair models, even non-dForce ones, are a million polys or more.

Exactly:)) 

Richard Haseltine

Applying SubD to the base cage mesh after posing makes for less crunched inner-amgles on bends, among other things. In any event, 3Deligth handles displacement adn SubD better than Iray so I'm not sure how Iray could be a contributing factor to their use.

Sven Dullah

Well IRay seems to be resource hungry, so maybe a couple of thousands or millions of polygones make a difference for fitting scenes into the GPU, what do I know. But, as I've said already, I suspect the real reason is DAZ need to sell their character morphs and HD add-ons. We as end users are rather limited in what we can do. A poly count of 16000 is on the lower side, is it not, in any event?

Sorel

I dunno, I feel like I've gotten pretty colse.  I dont work in iray but it is a daz figure.

Richard Haseltine

Sven Dullah said:

Well IRay seems to be resource hungry, so maybe a couple of thousands or millions of polygones make a difference for fitting scenes into the GPU, what do I know. But, as I've said already, I suspect the real reason is DAZ need to sell their character morphs and HD add-ons. We as end users are rather limited in what we can do. A poly count of 16000 is on the lower side, is it not, in any event?

Iray doesn't know about SubD, so the mesh has to be subdivided to the desired level before being sent across in any event.

I don't see what morphs and HD add-ons have to do with this - most if not all HD add-ons are at a higher division level than would be needed to match the old Victoria 4 etc. mesh (about 1, though that is slightly lower - but 2 would be a lot higher; most HD moprhs are level 3 to level 5).

Sven Dullah

Richard Haseltine said:

Sven Dullah said:

Well IRay seems to be resource hungry, so maybe a couple of thousands or millions of polygones make a difference for fitting scenes into the GPU, what do I know. But, as I've said already, I suspect the real reason is DAZ need to sell their character morphs and HD add-ons. We as end users are rather limited in what we can do. A poly count of 16000 is on the lower side, is it not, in any event?

Iray doesn't know about SubD, so the mesh has to be subdivided to the desired level before being sent across in any event.

I don't see what morphs and HD add-ons have to do with this - most if not all HD add-ons are at a higher division level than would be needed to match the old Victoria 4 etc. mesh (about 1, though that is slightly lower - but 2 would be a lot higher; most HD moprhs are level 3 to level 5).

Ok so maybe you understand a simple question? Why are DAZ figures made with a fairly low poly count? 

Richard Haseltine

Sven Dullah said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Sven Dullah said:

Well IRay seems to be resource hungry, so maybe a couple of thousands or millions of polygones make a difference for fitting scenes into the GPU, what do I know. But, as I've said already, I suspect the real reason is DAZ need to sell their character morphs and HD add-ons. We as end users are rather limited in what we can do. A poly count of 16000 is on the lower side, is it not, in any event?

Iray doesn't know about SubD, so the mesh has to be subdivided to the desired level before being sent across in any event.

I don't see what morphs and HD add-ons have to do with this - most if not all HD add-ons are at a higher division level than would be needed to match the old Victoria 4 etc. mesh (about 1, though that is slightly lower - but 2 would be a lot higher; most HD moprhs are level 3 to level 5).

Ok so maybe you understand a simple question? Why are DAZ figures made with a fairly low poly count? 

It's not, by any means, an unusualy approach - it makes weighting simpler, and gives better end rsults as (as I said above) you don't get a great wodge of polygons being squeezed very close together when a joint bends. It also helps with the speed of the working view.

Sven Dullah

Richard Haseltine said:

Sven Dullah said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Sven Dullah said:

Well IRay seems to be resource hungry, so maybe a couple of thousands or millions of polygones make a difference for fitting scenes into the GPU, what do I know. But, as I've said already, I suspect the real reason is DAZ need to sell their character morphs and HD add-ons. We as end users are rather limited in what we can do. A poly count of 16000 is on the lower side, is it not, in any event?

Iray doesn't know about SubD, so the mesh has to be subdivided to the desired level before being sent across in any event.

I don't see what morphs and HD add-ons have to do with this - most if not all HD add-ons are at a higher division level than would be needed to match the old Victoria 4 etc. mesh (about 1, though that is slightly lower - but 2 would be a lot higher; most HD moprhs are level 3 to level 5).

Ok so maybe you understand a simple question? Why are DAZ figures made with a fairly low poly count? 

It's not, by any means, an unusualy approach - it makes weighting simpler, and gives better end rsults as (as I said above) you don't get a great wodge of polygons being squeezed very close together when a joint bends. It also helps with the speed of the working view.

Tks! 

Sven Dullah

Sorel said:

I dunno, I feel like I've gotten pretty colse.  I dont work in iray but it is a daz figure.

Really nice! 

SnowSultan

wolf359 said:

SnowSultan said:

Something like translucency weight or similar? If that's the case, what's stopping you from using them?

Yes, I don't know why b/w maps are not included for the translucency settings when not all parts of the human body are translucent (and few parts are really very translucent at all). Having to set transluceny to .5 to .8 for every texture to not be blinding white may work in Studio, but it's a pain in the neck when you try to edit or use that texture anywhere else.

 

@SnowSultan

 

I agree with you .
Former poser vendor Syyd Raven used "Scattermasks"  for her "vanilla Sky" texures ,for V4 back in the day

 

Interesting, I had forgotten all about the tricks we used to use back in the V4/Posette days.  

Faux2D

Sven Dullah said:

Ok, forget games, not a gamer anyway. So is IRay to blame for the low poly count and heavy reliance on subdividing? DS/IRay and today's graphic cards/processors can't handle models with a poly count 50 times less than the average game character? Now you're gonna say it's not the geometry, it's the textures. And I'll reply so why not increase poly count then? 

The answer, I assume lies in their sales strategy...which is why we probably won't see increased realism with the next gen?

Game characters rarely go over 40 000 polygons, meaning 20 000 quads. Games want as few polygons (it's actually vertices that count but not important) as possible. The details you see on a game characters are from normal maps (images) which have the details of a high resolution mesh (millions of polygons) baked into it. Daz Studio can both read normal maps and handle millions of polygons. SubD in Daz can go up to 9, meaning that's enough detail to see inside the pores.

Genesis 2 is a figure far more advanced than any game character model out there, both relating to its topology and rigging technology. But people want real-time stuff so Genesis 3/8/8.1 are a step down in complexity so to speak but more in line with what's available on the gaming and 3D market. Basically Genesis 2 is indiginous to Daz Studio and no other software out there or game engine has the technology to use it properly. Genesis 3/8/8.1 can be used in other softwares easily.

wolf359

Basically Genesis 2 is indiginous to Daz Studio and no other software out there or game engine has the technology to use it properly. Genesis 3/8/8.1 can be used in other softwares easily.

 

@Faux2D

I can not speak on the game engines.( I dont use them)

 

However here is the Genesis 2 female imported in to Maxon C4D as a straight FBX with body and facial animation intact

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the Genesis 2 female imported into Blender  as a straight FBX with body and facial animation intact.

 

Here is the Genesis 2 female imported into Blender via Diffeomorphic converted to rigify

ready for key framing or mocap retargeting.

The only difference between G2 and G3,8, in other applications, is the lack of the FACS face rig  because G2 Never had a face rig .

 

However her morph based visemes transfer to external applications for use of Daz generate facial & lipsync data  (mimic,Anilip2 ).