Daz Studio and Linux
Rogerbee
Posts: 4,460
Hi there,
After much thought and perusal of the Windows 10 thread on here, I really want to ditch Microsoft for good and migrate to Linux Mint. I looked at the programs I regularly run in Windows and apart from Photoshop CS2 and DS there is nothing else that I can't run in Linux. CS2 will run on Linux with WINE, but, it's somewhat debatable as to whether DS4.8 64bit will. I'd like us to use this thread to share experiences with DS, WINE and Linux, news, views, anything.
Virtual machines are, I suppose, an alternative, but, it still means that Microsoft has to play a part. Windows needs AV and defrag, Linux doesn't. Installing a virtual Windows 7 just to run 3 programs doesn't seem worth it.
So, folks, let's see what you have to say....
CHEERS!
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Comments
Ah it's a drama, to be honest.
I had success installing the 32-bit version on Ubuntu using this tutorial: http://www.cupoflinux.com/SBB/index.php/topic,2299.html
Works for 4.8 as well. It's, let's say, okay. It boots up, asset loading is pretty slow (which can be due to my assets drive being a NTFS drive, which is slow in general on Linux), and when rendering it does not use 100% cpu, so you are wasting ressources/time.
But...
It didn't take long until the CMS got broken, which makes it impossible to search your assets or use Smart Assets.
It won't work on 64-bit, which is required for IRay or any scene that contains more than 1, 2, 3 models. In the long run, when they switch to 64bit only, which they will at some point, DAZ will not run on Linux anymore.
DAZ is a part of my assets pipeline and I always need to boot up Windows to e.g. check IRay properties - 32bit does not load anything connected to IRay - which slows me down a lot!
I think I've tried the virtual machine approach, but, given I'm using a native Windows install for DAZ only now, it looks like I wasn't successful - mind you, 3D acceleration tends to be _very_ slow and you really need that and you need more than just a basic integration. Pure CPU virtualization should be almost the same as native, due to the virtualization extension CPUs bring along for quite some time, but that's only one part of the story.
I'd really LOVE to have a Linux-Release for DAZ, but I don't think they are paying much attention to it. :(
If you find out more, I'd be happy to know about it. Good luck!
And there is the rub,
64bit is also needed for HD which I've grown accustomed to using. Losing Iray is no biggie as I don't use it and neither do I use the CMS. Unless someone gives WINE a kick up the backside to go heavy on 64bit, it does look like the only feasible way is a virtual machine. I've looked at a few and some do look promising. I do have Windows 7 on a DVD so installing it in a VM would be wholly doable.
It's really frustrating as DS is now the only thing standing in the way of me going fully Linux
And so we wait...
CHEERS!
A virtual machine is not really a solution. You would have to install Windows in it, so all you would be doing was using Windows again but running it in a virtual machine inside Linux instead of natively.
It really depends on how much interst there is among the Wine developers for applications like DS. I have heard there is a special version of Wine for running games, it would be nice if someone started on one for 3D software but I doubt if there is much chance of that.
The tutorial I've linked above makes use of that "special version", it's called PlayOnLinux.
It makes it easier to have separate WINE installations, but there's no magic involved unfortunately, which does not exist in WINE already.
As for a VM, I've chosen VirtualBox I think - it should be in of your repository. But it's not really a solution.
As for the broken CMS: Note that you cannot search at all. Don't know about your assets, but I can't live without a search, I already go crazy searching for stuff even with having one.
As for the 64-bit WINE: Well...I've been waiting for that for quite a while already. Don't count on it. Unfortunately, that kind of Windows coding is way out of my league, otherwise I'd try to contribute.
I doubt you'll see a Daz release for Linux any time soon if ever. It's just not cost effective for them to spend the resources on it.
They make their money selling content, not the actual application, so they want to sell as much content as possible. Since Windows is, by far, the largest segement of the market they have to spend the majority of their development resources on that version. Mac is still less than 10% of the desktop market but it's actually a fairly easy platform to port to and develop for since they have tight control over both the hardware and OS.
The last I saw (and I admit it's been a while) Linux was less than 2% of the desktop market. Not really an effective use of limited resources to even try and develop for that small a market.
I've not read the entire Win 10 thread here but I'm curious what about it makes you want to drop Windows? A lot of what people on the net are complaining about stems from a few poorly researched articles that have been repeatedly debunked by people that have actually used the operating system.
Yes, it's not really a solution, but, it could be all we've got. How many of us would it take to convince Daz that a Linux version of DS would be a viable option!? Blender has Linux support, as does Wings 3D. Both are 64bit.
Somewhat grudgingly, I may have to go along with installing Mint and then going the virtual machine route then at least it will work
Not yet though, I want to see what anyone else has to say...
CHEERS!
Not going to discuss market shares, I'm tired of it. But I leave this here: iPhones also have a _very_ low market share, yet they make more profit with the app store than all other stores combined, by magnitudes. So there's that. More mature users, more money in the pockets, marketing for beginners I'd bluntly say. :) On the other hand, they seem to have very custom approaches in their software, I would not like to port that for sure. You'd need a clean foundation to start from. I'd say better get a headstart now than run after the others later.
As for Windows, let me name you my reasons: Privacy. Security. Software.
For me, that's enough. Been with DOS+Windows since the very early days, but I also took the chance to get off. It's a steep learning curve, but you get used to it, like you get used to windows or any other OS, and in the end you rarely miss windows. If you do, it's because people give s**t about porting to linux (that's when that market share argument pops up) or they code that bad that you cannot emulate it - had one game where I even couldn't emulate the freakin' installer - cannot even think of, how much you have to f*** things up to make that happen. :|
There's so much good free software as well...ever tried to mount a server as a disk to your machine? It's a one-liner on linux, on windows you need software which you have to pay for (or do it the hard way). Then there is the repository. apt update && apt upgrade and _all_ your software is up to date.
Don't want to sell something here, but there are good reasons to switch, really. The hardest part are changing the habits. And learning new stuff.
I'm not a programmer,but Daz Studio appears to be written in QT4.Thats the same language used by the KDE desktop.Would it really cost that much more to replace the MS specific parts?
For me the reason to drop Windows is knowing that I'll have to pay for it some way down the line and everything I need to maintain it costs money too. Linux is free and takes less maintaining and everything that comes with it is free too. If I go that route and use DS with a virtual machine, all I'll really pay for is DS content. I've already bought lifetime licenses for the defrag and AV I'd have to run in it to keep that bit happy.
Also, for the main programs I use, I don't use Microsoft software. For browsing thew web I use Waterfox, I use Thunderbird for emails and Libre Office for letters, CV's and the like. Libre and Thunderbird are bundled with most Linux distros and there is a native 64bit Firefox for Linux too. What do I need Windows for!?
For someone finding it ever harder to find work, cost effective solutions need looking at a lot
CHEERS!
I'm always eager to learn and from what I've seen of Linux it doesn't look hard and there is a knowledgable user base on hand should anything go wrong. Just so I get it right, you can use DS4.8 64bit in a virtual machine!?
CHEERS!
It's not the language, it's the features. The Mac and PC versions have about the same set of features and plugin, for the linux version to exist those plugins would have to exist as well. No iray, no goZ, no dynamic clothing plugin, etc., no DS version. It's about selling the same content to different platforms. Also market share and the tools involved in workflows for making DS content would have to exist as well.
Pay for what? Obviosuly you would need a new license when you moved to a new system, but if you don't self-build avoiding Windows probably won't save you much there. Windows 10 is not using a rental model - this is one of those myths that keeps coming up and having to be squashed.
Pretty sure, yes. But there's that problem with the 3D acceleration, which makes it not fun at all to use, really. Not sure if there were other caveats, it's been a couple of months since I tried that approach and finaly went for that tutorial and a native offline-only windows installation (with it's own drives, for whatever it is good for).
Talking about it, I can recall dimly that I've read about some "major" progress on 3D acceleration in a certain VM software a while ago. Maybe worth to dig out which one it was and give it a try.
Richard:
Do you really think, they sell you once and that's it, forever? Interesting business model, I should sell my stocks quickly then. ;)
Yeah, only today I was looking at all of the VM packages, I'll have another look at them and see what is what.
CHEERS!
The maintenance programs and anti virus are what you would need to pay for. All the best programs for disc maintenance, defrag and AV all seem to be pay versions. Some do have lifetime licenses, others don't and charge annually for licenses. Linux says that it doesn't need defrafgmenting due to the way it structures the hard drive and they also say that you don't need anti virus software. That all sounds good to me.
CHEERS!
You SHOULD be able to use DS4.8 64bit in a virtual machine running a 64bit version of Windows. Though I have to be honest I'm not up to date on what virtualization packages are availble for Linux and if any of them actually support 64bit.
You're still going to run into issues of it being dog slow as well as potential issues of the software not being able to take advantage of all of the features of the hardware. So you may have a state of the art nVidia GPU but not be able to actually use IRay.
Running a virtual machine doesn't get you out of paying for Windows either. A VM requires a copy of the OS to run. Using something like Wine can mean you don't need a copy of Windows but that's because it's emulating Windows functions instead of running a full blown copy of the OS. An emulator may not support all of the features of the full blown OS so you may not be able to run a 64bit app. You also may not be able to access even some of the more basic features of the hardware since that hardware is being emulated.
I know of several people that are running Linux and using Wine to play games and many of the newer games will work. Not all of them, and most of them can't really run at higher graphics settings but it's a price they're willing to pay. You have to decide if what you lose in capabilites is worth it to you and if it is I say go for it - though make sure you have a backup in case it just doesn't work out.
Well, the OS is already covered seeing as I bought a Windows 7 DVD to install when I built this machine. I don't use Iray and possibly the virtual machine will emulate what I have now. Virtualbox has OpenGL support and it's likely that the current version will support whatever the latest version of OpenGL is, as will Linux. It's a daunting prospect, but, it's a way I can keep this computer going well into the future and not have to spend much money doing so.
CHEERS!
My question is if you're going to be using a version of Windows that you've already purchased why not just run it natively? Running it in a virtual machine won't gain you anything, it will only cost you performance wise even if all of the features are supported.
I may be missing something but how is running a copy of Win7 in a virtual machine going to keep your computer going longer compared to just running that same copy of Win7 directly?
Apart from DS and a couple of maintenance programs on a virtual machine, everything else would be Linux. Right now, I don't use Microsoft for anything other than DS, so, why then should I use Windows for everything else when all the other programs I'd use are native to Linux!?
CHEERS!
Sisca, just accept that some people have their reasons. ;-) Thread is not about discussing the Pros and Cons of Linux vs. Windows, but on how to get DAZ running with acceptable performance on linux. And the solution is NOT to get told to use Windows. :)
Edith:
To clarify, actually the solution IS to use Windows to get a acceptable performance, unfortunately. Still, it does not hurt to elaborate on, maybe new, ways on how to get DAZ up and running on Linux.
About what I've said above on reasons and discussing: See, I've been there too often, it's a discussion nobody gains anything from. You won't consider Linux as an option no matter what, those who have chosen to switch, don't consider Windows anymore, no matter what. It's only lost time and efforts discussing on that.
I also refrained from using Linux for quite some time and only for a single reason: habits. Habits are hard to change, but it can be done. You either like Linux in the end and stick to it, or you don't. In the end, it's an OS you can do virtually anything with and sometimes you have to. On windows, most of the time all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say "well, hopefully they'll fix that some day.". On Linux, as a coder, I can clone the repository and fix it on my own, most of the time. Or extend it. I don't have to, but i CAN. I like that. Other peoples mileage may vary, though.
A couple of things...
1. Studio 64-bit isn't...at least completely. It's a mix of 32 bit and 64 bit. Sometime, probably fairly soon, that is going to have to change. The 32 bit parts will need to become 64 bit or be removed.
2. The current DEVELOPMENT version of WINE has pretty good 64 bit support and does run quite a few 64 bit programs.
3. As both WINE and Studio move forward, they should still be able to be usable, together.
4. The CMS not working...there are two options. One is to set up a native Linux Postgre and use it. Or do without...CMS is NOT absolutely needed.
As to plugins...some can be recompiled, but others like GoZ are a definite problem. But an even bigger problem than plugins is content. There is way too much of it that is an absolute nightmare to install on a case-sensetive file system. Short of forcing the use of the DIM and having it run a renaming script to correct all the content to a uniform case, content has to be installed manually, to a 'work' folder FIRST.
Ok, that I can understand and is a valid reason to switch.
One suggestion/option I would toss out there if you find you're having performance issues running Win/DS in a VM is to just set up a dual boot. Boot into Win when you need the performance boost, otherwise stay in Linux.
Another option would be to run Linux in a VM since most of the other tasks people do day to day aren't as reliant on close interaction between the hardware and OS.
Mork - I'm just trying to understand the reasons for doing something so I can provide better feedback as to the pros & cons. One of the reasons given was cost of the OS, a VM doesn't save you anything there since you have to buy the OS to install it in the VM. An emulator can save you the cost of the OS but it comes with a hit on performance/capabilities.
Since he mainly asked for experince using VM/Wine on Linux I'll mostly bow out now since the last time I even thought about using a VM on Linux was about 4 years ago.
I will add that I currently run DS on my Mac and while it's perfectly functional I only use that if I'm traveling and only have access to my laptop. It's noticably slower than my desktop and I can't do anything with IRay even though I have an nVidia chipset in my MacBook.
LOL, that was 4!
It's sounding like future versions of WINE could be heading in the direction we want. I've never used the CMS so that would be no biggie, I don't have ZBrush so GoZ wouldn't be a concern. In the case of the content, it might be long winded to do so, but, if installing manually, you could look in the zip, rename anything that needs it and then install the content.
At the moment, the virtual machine idea is still doable. I have 16gb of RAM so how much could I allocate to get decent performance out of DS? The VM could also serve as a standby till DS works in WINE.
CHEERS!
Interesting points,
Right from the get go I wasn't all that reliant on Windows for anything other than the OS. I got MS Works as it was pre-installed on my first PC back in '93, but, an accident with Doublespace meant I lost it and I didn't have installation disks for it. A friend gave me Claris Works and I used that right up till I swapped to a newer PC. When I got my laptop I got Office for it, but, I installed it too many times and couldn't install it on this machine so I had to look for alternatives. I used Apache Open Office for a while, but it doesn't support docx very well, so I switched to Libre. While researching Libre and reading the Win 10 thread, I found that Libre was part of Linux and that had intrigued me when I read about it in the issue of 3D World that inspired me to build this PC.
Using packages other than Microsoft opened my eyes to what else was out there and increasingly they turned out to be free, which, when your budget is like mine, is always welcome. Linux offers me a lot of freedom, and they're not looking over your shoulder, tracking you, or leaving their old email servers open so they can be hacked (That happened with Hotmail!) and they don't nag you with reminders that you don't own the latest and greatest OS yet.
CHEERS!
Before I say anything let me start by saying that I have used Ubuntu and Linux Mint for a while so I have experience using the platform.
1. Anyone who says that Linux doesn't get viruses is flat out wrong. Android is Linux and more viruses are attacking Android then even Windows.
2. Most viruses or bugs days are multi platform and browser based. Like the Firefox browser bug released this week that will steal all your passwords. In other words Linux is probably the least secure platform that you can choose these days. Furthermore Windows 10 comes with its own malware protection called Windows defender, so no you don't have to spend more.
3. Linux mint and Ubuntu both mine your data every bit as much as Microsoft or google. If you really want to be free from invasion of privacy then go find which Linux distribution Richard Stallman uses and get that one because chances are it's your only bet.
the primary reason why Microsoft is offering 10 for free is because it saves them money. At one time they had to support 5 os's at once, XP, VISTA, 7, 8 and 8.1. By doing what they are doing they are reducing the amount of support they have to maintain. In one fell swoop they have people who used 7 and 8, millions of them, from two platforms to one.
They are working to reduce their fragmentation and facing the cluster f*** that Android has on it's hands.
Bottom line is if you want to switch to Linux then just do it but don't make stuff up to justify it.
well I am thinking of using Linux on my old Vista laptop which is 32 bit but it says 64 bit capable
I tried Centos live 64 bit and it worked
which was promising
was only planning on web browsing on it and maybe using Blender and LMMS (and learning both) Vista totally sucks in every way and no free Win10 upgrade either so no loss.
but if they did decide to do a DS Linux build I certainly would use it too but not using wine or any other windows emulater as it is rather pointless when I have a perfectly good Win7 desktop.
Ugh! that sounds like nightmare even with wine , which Adobe photshop cs5 works on so far. I installed Linux Mint on my new SSD drive and made my system a dual boot so I can try to master linux before I have to abondon windows in a few years. I made it a dual boot in case i can grasp the hang of linux scripting commands. which I have found are easier said then done..Ha ha
I am really hoping for greater improvements with the Ubuntu Studio that was included with Mint download., I also started reading & learning setting up security features for linux, which can be tricky too. ..lol I been doing one thing at a time too see what is still working as i go through the list of turning on/off options. also Adobe Flash pro did not work . it loaded but it won;t compile the FLA into a sfw . so it makes thats programs a door stopper..
so far as far as daz goes I am able to view my drive that has all my Runtimee and content files. but i have not had a chance to play with daz on it yet because i am still trying to figure out how the darn thing work..lol
lucky when i was googling for tips and tricks I found this site to be very helpful using the features and how to set them up . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features
I hope someone else may find useful as well
Just did a search on Linux security compared to windows securityand looking only at posts from sites dealing only in security issues they all agree that linux is far more secure than windows
Yes it can still be hacked but the kernel is not as likely to be breached as other operating systems
Between Mac,Os Windows and Linux windows is the most vulnerable according to the security testing sites
I guess the question will be then in a few years after people start abandoning windows will hacker start putting more effort into compriming Linux?
As I said I hope linux will improve as more users get on it . if not then I guess we will be using old machines...lol
Sort of...the big thing about Android...it is very lax with implementing the built in security that already exists.