Questions for ZBrush Users...
DrowElfMorwen
Posts: 538
I see ZBrush coming up over and over again as some really amazing software for creating 3D items (including some to be used in DAZ). I note it is also very expensive, so before I try to decide to buy this, I'd like to ask some questions of ZBrush users.
How long did you take to learn to make something in Zbrush (and how much time was dedicated?)?
Would you say this is easy or difficult for someone who only uses DAZ Studio?
I also know close to nothing about content creation. Sort of the same as above, how long might it take me to learn it?
I can't think of other questions, but if someone has some ideas that I should consider before purchase, or even alternatives, please let me know.
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Comments
These days it is quicker to learn ZBrush than when I first got it. There are a ton of tutorials out there, paid and free, that really show you how to do just about anything. That said, tutorials specific to working with Daz Studio are a much smaller, nice segment of the tutorial population. There are recently many more people starting threads here and helping each with what you need to know to do morphs, which is probably what most people seek to do.
It may turn out to be advantageous that you only use Daz Studio because then you don't come with any preconceived notions of what a 3D program looks like. ZBrush is unlike any other program out there. It is not a dedicated vertex modeler like Maya, Modo or Blender. The most recent version of ZBrush added Zmodeler, which does let you manipulate at vertex level, but like anything in ZBrush, it is really unique in how it works and is really made for artists to be able to get in and do things with a much more creative way to accomplish them. Some people require more rigidity than ZBrush can give them, and so many model base models to take into ZBrush, res them up and sculpt away.
Keep in mind that for anything where you're going to produce morphs, you MUST export the base figures at BASE resolution (default is High) and not subdivide them in ZBrush or use any function that adds physical geometry to them. Most sculpting brushes do not. IMM brushes insert geometry (key word is insert, so it's adding). Curve brushes will also add. So you will need to learn what you can and can't use.
The geometry, at base res, will look blocky to you, but remember you saw it in Daz Studio and it was smooth. When you return the morph to Studio, you will again see it smooth.
That is really dependent on you. Some people take a bit of time, others more. There is no one who can predict how long it will take you till you try. Anything new is usually hard. If you persevere, aha moments will begin and then you'll be less frustrated. Just know you have to work through the frustration, through, what Ryan Kingslien terms, the Valley of Suck. But it's well worth it if you can stick to it (in my oh so very humble opinion).
Presently, there is a demo available (unless something changed that I don't know about). I would strongly advise going through tutorials (Pixologic's ZClassroom is a good place to start) and threads here at Daz (for info on how to do morphs or whatever you want to learn) before you start the demo so you don't eat away your time on the demo while trying to find information on how to start, etc.
You can check into Sculptris which is free. There are some things which you must be keenly aware of when working with Sculptris. There are, again, threads on Sculptris here at Daz more specific to working with the Daz models. It does not look like it may see an update anytime soon as the guy who created Sculptris is no longer at Pixologic. Still it may be a means to learning how to sculpt.
Blender can also be used for sculpting morphs. The tools are not yet as sophisticated, but new versions keep coming out with better tools.
Other than that, persevere, ask questions, and try to have a bit of fun. :) Good luck.
This is from an amateur/hobbyist point of view: :-)
I've had ZB for ten years, have been seriously studying it for 1 year approx. I can maneuver around in it fairly well now. The more time you put in, the more quickly you'll learn. But 4r7, to me, has been the most user-friendly version. Its advantage is that it CAN be an all-in-one program. You can model, UV map, texture, and export normal maps from ZB. Also, it's a great morphing tool. And there are a lot of free tutorials, although I found Scott-Spencer's Intro to ZB4r7 tut (from Gnomon) to be well worth the rather high price. :-) Then again, I love long tutorials and love to learn anything about ZB or 3D.
You'll have to also learn the principles of content making. Learning ZB and learning content making aren't exactly the same thing. You can learn ZB from a content creator's point of view, but you might want to bone up on content making first and see if you like that.
It's according to how much time you invest and how quickly you want to learn. :-) Again, I've been creating content as a hobbyist for about ten years. I'd say it took me a couple of months, anyway, to make a passable freebie. I was working full time though then, so didn't have as much time to devote to 3D.
There are tuts in the store about creating content. I remember working one by Fugazi, using the Hexagon program. Definitely, if there's a ZB demo, try that out before you buy.
Thank you both for the extensive answers!
I do have Hexagon, but I have yet to use it at all--perhaps I should start with that? Can Hexagon create and do morphs and UV maps and all that?
For now, I am interested in trying to create plants, and some static objects, so I am not too worried about morphs (for now). If I can accomplish this with either of those, or Sculptris, I will be a happy person. :)
Many people model in Hexagon. Go have a look at the hexagon thread you should be able to pick up a good amount of info. I am learning to model in Hexagon (I work full time so its slow going but it doesn't seem to be too horribly hard) and there are lots of you tube videos out there as well to give you some idea of how it works
And Zbrush is far out of my price range at the moment/ I have Sculptrix and really like it but it uses triangles not squares and you have to learn to convert to square to get it to work in Daz from what I understand.
Any modeler will let you create props and make morphs. :-) So yes, Hexagon would let you do that, and make plants and static props. I'm not sure about Hexagon's UV mapping. I never tried to use it for that.
As to what program to use...it's according to how much money you want to spend, and the approach you take to modeling. With ZBrush, you can sculpt (or basically draw in 3D) your props, unless you want to use ZModeler (a new polygon type modeling system for ZB, in 4r7). Hexagon, if I remember right, is a polygon modeler. You create models by moving polygons and points around.
I surely would try the demo of ZBrush first though, before I shelled out all that money. If there's a demo now. There wasn't, when I got it (for a Christmas present) but that may have changed. Also, to get the most fun out of using ZBrush, I need to use a tablet and pen, whereas I can model in other programs with a mouse. :-)
Just for the sake of accuracy, as it is often misunderstood:
A single vertex can also be called a vert or a point.
The line between two points is an edge.
A polygon with three verts and three edges forms a triangle, with four it's a quad, with more it's an ngon (some programs cannot deal with ngons and they must be resolved to triangles and/or quads).
The other thing to keep in mind is learning topology and good edge flow. When you work in ZBrush, or in a dedicated modeler for that matter, when you sculpt, you often increase the geometry with subdivion to get smoother results. The more fine the details, the higher the amount of subdivsion (which can mean millions of polygons) in order to achieve smooth. For many in ZBrush, this is fine as they are not always making a model that will do more than be a presentation piece. For purposes of using in other programs, consideration must be given to have a lower amount of geometry in order to work efficiently rendering or even just moving the model around. Consider, if you have, how many times you have a heavy environment and it becomes very slow to move or rotate in the 3D view.
For that reason, most programs, including ZBrush, have the ability to retoplogize. This lowers the amount of geometry, The better the topology, the fewer polygons you can end up using to achieve a smooth surface because the topology follows the contours of the model in a methodical way. The way you retopologize for props will be different than for something that is rigged for movement/animation. There are more and more auto-retopologizers, some with guide systems that allow you to direct the program with how you would like the topology to flow. Sometimes you can get a good enough retopology with auto methods, but good modelers will, at the very least, keenly study how it came out and redo parts that didn't work as expected.
Here are is a good source for information on edge flow:
And lastly is the need learn how to work when sculpting. Don't get seduced by high resolution geometry. Newbies often do because it begins to look really pretty. However, it's important to work as low res as possible in the beginning as you work out the major silhouette of the object. Even when you start jumping to higher levels of subd to add details, use this as a guide: for major silhouette changes, jump to lower levels to move things around and use the higher levels to add in details. If you jump to lower levels once you have added details, you won't lose the details when moving masses around. The higher the subd, the less amount of geometry you will easily move around. Think of it like having marbles. If you have ten marbles and want to pick up most of the in one scoop, it's far easier to do that than if you tried the same with 100 marbles.
I know all this information can become overwhelming, but keep it in mind as you start learning. As you do, it will make more and more sense to you. :)
Before spending the money for ZBrush, you will want to find out if you like modeling. I would suggest a low end approach using Sculptrus (free) and Nevercenter's Silo (it comes up fairly often at the Smith Micro site on sale and on its own site usually for about $99). One of the reasons, I suggest this particular program is that it has a sculpting component. Another is that Fugazi1968 also has a bunch of inexpensive tutuorials using Silo at another site that give a good introduction to content creation.
I have used Hexagon for a number of projects and it is okay (I had lots of problems with it crashing), but I prefer Silo. I also could not get the hang of UV mapping in Hexagon and found a free program called LithUnwrap that works perfect for me. I have not tried UV mapping in Silo as LithUnwrap so far has been sufficient for my needs at this point.
Good luck!
All model programs use triangles; the ones that use quads, are merely a representation of two triangles. The reason being (I believe) is that dividing a quad in half gives you a smaller quad, and the flow direction is kept; divide a triangle in half and the direction is changed. Useful, but triangles can also cause pinching.
The thing is, it is common to see programs convert from quads to triangles at some level or other - it can be invisible to the user.
Yes, tris are almost always invisible to the user, unless somebody deliberately triangulates a model. I only do that when I want to use the Quixel apps, which require a triangulated model. Then I apply those maps back to the quad model. :-)
I'd read that programs rendered triangles, but I've grown so accustomed to "quads only," when making a model that I hardly ever think in terms of triangles. Unless I have one in a model that I can't figure out how to get rid of. ;-)
I didn't know that thanks! I had asked about sculpting in sculptris for models for Daz and was told that it was difficult to convert for use in daz because it used triangles instead of squares. They did mention pinching as well.
I found Sculptris to be really easy to use if its usable to sculpt for Daz I would pick that first over some of the others. I am currently learning Hexagon which isn't too bad, I haven't tried it often enough to remark on it crashing other than to say that its mentioned often by quite a few people.
If you've got Hexagon then learn the basics first, Zbrush can be a bit overwhelming and you can't jump straight into it. Zbrush is quite cheap if you look at the big guns prices like Maya and Max. Zbrush is more a tool that help with detailing but it is the best at what it does !
Best thing about the price of ZBrush? Buy it once, and free updates for life. :D
So far, but as I recall they have said 5 will not be a free upgrade.