Like To See The Eyebrows On Characters / Separate Eyebrows?

Oso3D

Vwrangler: With Laticis' brows, are you making sure to add the eyebrow to the conforming mask? I made the mistake of not doing so until... yeah.

Apply the 'eyebrow mask.' THEN the eyebrows fit to the mask. Works way better.

 

L'Adair

FW Alfred HD for Michael 6 comes with optional fiber mesh eyebrows.

In another thread, talking about male clothing I believe, (It's Not Raining Men might be the one,) I had a short convo with the PA who created the fiber mesh hair for Alfred. I suggested making a set of fiber mesh eyebrows of varying styles as an add-on for Alfred, and any other of FW's male characters with the same bone structure. But he didn't respond once he understood what I was asking for. Not sure if he just didn't see my comment, or if he didn't want to pursue the topic. But it's been long enough, I think we'd have heard about such a product if he had decided to create one. Maybe he'll read this thread and realize there really is a market for something like that. Fingers crossed, anyway.

In another thread about Mec4d's Unshaven 2 product, people were asking if she could do a similar eyebrow product. She pointed out that the eyebrows of the different characters for any given figure, (I'm thinking she was referring to the "bone structure" in the eyebrow area,) that making a universal product is essentially impossible.

But it seems to me, a PA who creates characters could easily do several characters with eyebrow bone structure similar enough a fiber mesh eyebrow addon could be created that worked with those characters.

If you could buy an addon that specified three or four characters it was guaranteed to look correct on, would you buy it? I know I would, even if I only had one of the characters. And I'd be inclined to pick up the other characters, too! Male or female.

fixmypcmike

vwrangler said:

What I've wondered is why the eyebrows aren't a separate zone any more. Victoria 4, I think, had a separate eyebrow zone. I'm not sure how often it was used, though. But it has happened in the past.

Unfortunately, very few vendors used the V4 eyebrow zone, because every time they made a custom head morph they had to make a matching morph for the brow, and if it wasn't an exact fit you'd get poke-through, and with different facial expressions it was a lot of work.  It would probably be easier now with the Genesis figures because of autofollow, but it might still need custom matching morphs.

L'Adair

Fixmypcmike said:

vwrangler said:

What I've wondered is why the eyebrows aren't a separate zone any more. Victoria 4, I think, had a separate eyebrow zone. I'm not sure how often it was used, though. But it has happened in the past.

Unfortunately, very few vendors used the V4 eyebrow zone, because every time they made a custom head morph they had to make a matching morph for the brow, and if it wasn't an exact fit you'd get poke-through, and with different facial expressions it was a lot of work.  It would probably be easier now with the Genesis figures because of autofollow, but it might still need custom matching morphs.

Even if we're only talking about a zone for a different texture map?

mjc1016

L'Adair said:

Even if we're only talking about a zone for a different texture map?

Flip the viewport drawstyle to Wireframe or Wire Shaded, in Studio, and look at the layout of the geometry in the brow area...a separate zone will have seam problems that will require as much/more work to match up than the lips do.

Richard Haseltine

L'Adair said:

Fixmypcmike said:

vwrangler said:

What I've wondered is why the eyebrows aren't a separate zone any more. Victoria 4, I think, had a separate eyebrow zone. I'm not sure how often it was used, though. But it has happened in the past.

Unfortunately, very few vendors used the V4 eyebrow zone, because every time they made a custom head morph they had to make a matching morph for the brow, and if it wasn't an exact fit you'd get poke-through, and with different facial expressions it was a lot of work.  It would probably be easier now with the Genesis figures because of autofollow, but it might still need custom matching morphs.

Even if we're only talking about a zone for a different texture map?

If you are talking about a separate zon on the face mesh, not a layer like a partial Geometry Shell, then no that wouldn't complicate morphing. However, if it was just a repeat of the UVs on the base face then it would be rather inefficient - you'd need to full size face textures loaded anytime you swapped the brows which would be a nuisance in Iray particualrly - and if you used a unique mapping for the brow area the character makers, faced with four seams to fix in the middle of the face, would hunt you down and slowly kill you.

Zev0

nicstt said:

Lyoness said:

nicstt said:

... so Lyoness' no brows option is awesome...

... I've bought the two Lyoness characters in part due to the no brows option - I will get the other she did because of that ...

<3 you!!

(Just realised it is possible to misunderstand what I put; I meant in my post that there is more work as it is not just adjusting the diffuse texture, but also spec, bump, normal, SSS etc.)

Zev0 said:

I for one preffer character or skin sets with a no brow option where I can add my own either via lie or manually or makes adding a fibremesh set easier. In most cases brows define a specific age group which limits the skin usage. Eg some skins would look great on younger characters but the brows are too thin making it look a bit un-canny. Just my opinion.

Love that your (and Raiya's) merchant resource had the no eyebrow option.

@PAs that create character textures. :)

I'm curious how much extra work it is?

Presumably the textures are created, then the eyebrows afterwards?

Honestly it's about 10min extra work to offer both options. How I do it is brush out the brows on a skin using the healing brush in photoshop on all maps such as spec, diffuse etc. Then saving that as a new browless preset.

Kendall Sears

Something like this?  There are sets coming that match the vast majority of DAZ figures.

Kendall

L'Adair

Richard Haseltine said:

L'Adair said:

Fixmypcmike said:

vwrangler said:

What I've wondered is why the eyebrows aren't a separate zone any more. Victoria 4, I think, had a separate eyebrow zone. I'm not sure how often it was used, though. But it has happened in the past.

Unfortunately, very few vendors used the V4 eyebrow zone, because every time they made a custom head morph they had to make a matching morph for the brow, and if it wasn't an exact fit you'd get poke-through, and with different facial expressions it was a lot of work.  It would probably be easier now with the Genesis figures because of autofollow, but it might still need custom matching morphs.

Even if we're only talking about a zone for a different texture map?

If you are talking about a separate zon on the face mesh, not a layer like a partial Geometry Shell, then no that wouldn't complicate morphing. However, if it was just a repeat of the UVs on the base face then it would be rather inefficient - you'd need to full size face textures loaded anytime you swapped the brows which would be a nuisance in Iray particualrly - and if you used a unique mapping for the brow area the character makers, faced with four seams to fix in the middle of the face, would hunt you down and slowly kill you.

Yes to the first, I am talking about just a zone on the face mesh. Then the full size map only needs a small area of actual texture, and the rest a solid color; like we've seen for lips and fingernails, for example.

And even if the character makers wouldn't hunt me down and slowly kill me, I'd never suggest a sweeping solution that would cause more work for them. (Not intentionally, anyway.) More work means longer time between new releases for us, not to mention a price increase to compensate for the extra work and fewer product releases per year.

scorpio

Kendall Sears said:

Something like this?  There are sets coming that match the vast majority of DAZ figures.

Kendall

WOW they look really good the best I think I've ever seen.

Novica

 

scorpio said:

Kendall Sears said:

Kendall

WOW they look really good the best I think I've ever seen.

+ 1, looks good Kendall!

marble

@Zev0 - I asked this in your Growing Up Skins Merchant Resource thread but no replies so I hope someone here can answer. That product has LIE eyebrows and when I apply them it takes a couple of minutes for the spinning wheel to stop so that I can continue. That's fine but I would like to bake that choice of brow with LIE Baker and I'm having no luck. I use LIE Baker for other things with no problem so I'm not sure what I need to do with the eyebrows?

lx_2807502

FSMCDesigns said:

nicstt said:

Agree.

And I would add, when I'm buying a character, the skin texture is the most important aspect; which makes the nudity rules here awkward, but it is what it is. And at least the plethora of tiny bikinis make that part easy enough to remedy. Even though, there is very little of the skin showing on promos.

I even sent a PM once a main asking for more details on a resource; I didn't get a favourable response, so didn't purchase.

Couldn't agree more! You are basically selling textures, so it would make sense to see ALL the product. If nothing else, most here have a DA account, post nude promos there and link to it like some used to do when we still had Artzone.

Dumb question but why can't there just be an option in your account settings that says "show all nude promos" or whatever and then when you load the store if you are logged in it displays the potentially terrifying promos of the full texture? Artists are meant to know better than to think that nudity = erotic content -_-

I don't really have an issue with the eyebrows because they tend to go with the skin tone which also force them into only having one hair colour - but that's a different sort of issue.

nicstt

Zev0 said:

nicstt said:

Lyoness said:

nicstt said:

... so Lyoness' no brows option is awesome...

... I've bought the two Lyoness characters in part due to the no brows option - I will get the other she did because of that ...

<3 you!!

(Just realised it is possible to misunderstand what I put; I meant in my post that there is more work as it is not just adjusting the diffuse texture, but also spec, bump, normal, SSS etc.)

Zev0 said:

I for one preffer character or skin sets with a no brow option where I can add my own either via lie or manually or makes adding a fibremesh set easier. In most cases brows define a specific age group which limits the skin usage. Eg some skins would look great on younger characters but the brows are too thin making it look a bit un-canny. Just my opinion.

Love that your (and Raiya's) merchant resource had the no eyebrow option.

@PAs that create character textures. :)

I'm curious how much extra work it is?

Presumably the textures are created, then the eyebrows afterwards?

 

Honestly it's about 10min extra work to offer both options. How I do it is brush out the brows on a skin using the healing brush in photoshop on all maps such as spec, diffuse etc. Then saving that as a new browless preset.

Darn, I've been doing it wrong. :)

Leana

lx said:

Dumb question but why can't there just be an option in your account settings that says "show all nude promos" or whatever and then when you load the store if you are logged in it displays the potentially terrifying promos of the full texture?

Probably because the store system DAZ uses doesn't provide that kind of options.

throttlekitty

Just throwing this out there since it's new and fresh on my mind and it's a brainstorming thread. The Uncharted 4 artists took an interesting hair card approach to brows and lashes. I assume they're only used for cinematic scenes. I'm not sure it would be a great solution for a daz character what with all the face morphs. But from a creation aspect, this style would give great shape control via morphs for the eyebrow cards (ie, just move and rotate them around a little).

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/dgkv1  and  https://www.artstation.com/artwork/m5kVd

I still think a fibermesh/polytube solution is best when done well. Kendal's looks great!

Kendall Sears

 

throttlekitty said:

Just throwing this out there since it's new and fresh on my mind and it's a brainstorming thread. The Uncharted 4 artists took an interesting hair card approach to brows and lashes. I assume they're only used for cinematic scenes. I'm not sure it would be a great solution for a daz character what with all the face morphs. But from a creation aspect, this style would give great shape control via morphs for the eyebrow cards (ie, just move and rotate them around a little).

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/dgkv1  and  https://www.artstation.com/artwork/m5kVd

I still think a fibermesh/polytube solution is best when done well. Kendal's looks great!

 

Thanks. I'd like to mention that that render is 3Delight not Iray. The Iray is stunning but being saved for the promo pages. Also, the LAMH presets that create the brows do follow morphs and such.

Kendall

Zev0

marble said:

@Zev0 - I asked this in your Growing Up Skins Merchant Resource thread but no replies so I hope someone here can answer. That product has LIE eyebrows and when I apply them it takes a couple of minutes for the spinning wheel to stop so that I can continue. That's fine but I would like to bake that choice of brow with LIE Baker and I'm having no luck. I use LIE Baker for other things with no problem so I'm not sure what I need to do with the eyebrows?

If you want to bake you need to manually overlay the eyebrows on the textures in Photoshop. I just included application presets so users didnt have to manually plug everything in for those who just wanted to use the skins.

Lyoness

Although removing eyebrows is a pretty simple process for me, providing multiple sets of brows is going to be challenging because I have more than one layer to paint and it starts to build into a lot of work to provide one skin with several brow options with multiple colors along with everything else. I would need to charge more money for that kind of extravagence... no one wants that. I'm loving the pic by Kendall and look forward to something delicate and interesting for the ladies

Daywalker Designs

Leana said:

lx said:

Dumb question but why can't there just be an option in your account settings that says "show all nude promos" or whatever and then when you load the store if you are logged in it displays the potentially terrifying promos of the full texture?

Probably because the store system DAZ uses doesn't provide that kind of options.

It probably does, but DAZ won't allow nude promo renders, so it's a moot point.

Male-M3dia

Cybersox13 said:

Male-M3dia said:

Saiyaness said:

FSMCDesigns said:

nicstt said:

Agree.

And I would add, when I'm buying a character, the skin texture is the most important aspect; which makes the nudity rules here awkward, but it is what it is. And at least the plethora of tiny bikinis make that part easy enough to remedy. Even though, there is very little of the skin showing on promos.

I even sent a PM once a main asking for more details on a resource; I didn't get a favourable response, so didn't purchase.

Couldn't agree more! You are basically selling textures, so it would make sense to see ALL the product. If nothing else, most here have a DA account, post nude promos there and link to it like some used to do when we still had Artzone.

Gotcha. Nude renders of Opal, coming right up ;) 

Won't be linked with the product though, already tried. ;) (M3D Jesse is a good example of a product of a lot of HD gens morphs that can't be advertised)

As the the only way people would be able to see them is to go on a hunt for them in thread link or search on DA(which once again forum users are a small part of the customer base), it's not much value in adding those promos either.

Well, no, that's just wrong.  A lot of us follow individual PAs and check their DevArt sites regularly for new products and WIPs, and there are PAs who use this quite effectively.  If you don't use a sales tool, that's fine for you, but please don't make blanket assumptions for everyone.          

Sorry not blanket assumption. DA is not a useful tool for those customers outside the forum, especially for those that don't even have a DA account. This is only effective if the link is assessable from the store page, otherwise as I said, customers would actually have to know DA and the account exists.

L'Adair

Lyoness said:

Although removing eyebrows is a pretty simple process for me, providing multiple sets of brows is going to be challenging because I have more than one layer to paint and it starts to build into a lot of work to provide one skin with several brow options with multiple colors along with everything else. I would need to charge more money for that kind of extravagence... no one wants that. I'm loving the pic by Kendall and look forward to something delicate and interesting for the ladies

That makes perfect sense. However, would an add-on for any given figure with the no-brow option face and several brow variation be feasible? If so, the people who want the options for other colored brows could buy the add-on. And those who did not, could still get the characters at usual prices.

Just an idea, of course.

And I, too, am looking forward to see what Kendall is, (I assume,) planning on releasing.

Kendall Sears

L'Adair said:

Lyoness said:

Although removing eyebrows is a pretty simple process for me, providing multiple sets of brows is going to be challenging because I have more than one layer to paint and it starts to build into a lot of work to provide one skin with several brow options with multiple colors along with everything else. I would need to charge more money for that kind of extravagence... no one wants that. I'm loving the pic by Kendall and look forward to something delicate and interesting for the ladies

That makes perfect sense. However, would an add-on for any given figure with the no-brow option face and several brow variation be feasible? If so, the people who want the options for other colored brows could buy the add-on. And those who did not, could still get the characters at usual prices.

Just an idea, of course.

And I, too, am looking forward to see what Kendall is, (I assume,) planning on releasing.

Assuming that DAZ accepts the presets as a product, they will be released.

Kendall